Due to another thread I am wondering about how Hw's factor into P4P lists and why or why not some are ranked as high as they are. Ali and Louis are consistantly ranked 1 and 2 in "most" Hw lists. Usually during these debates the majority consensus seems to be that the gap between the 2 is minute but much larger between 2 & 3. Usually you will see Marciano 3-5 and Dempsey some have in the top 5 most in the top 10 and nearly all in the top 15. I was watching a boxing's greatest documnetary (can't remember which one) where Louis was ranked as the #1 HW of all time, and Ali # 2...in this same program when it went to P4P Ali edged Louis in their ranking? If there is very little difference in their weight and ranking why would this occur? In many P4P lists you will see Ali in the top 10 (many cases top 5) and Louis is notably absent. In the earlier thread Ali was top 5 which some felt was fine, but when Louis was ranked top 10 they felt that was to high. So why if there is very little difference between them in most observers eyes as HW's why does that disparity seem to grow in a P4P list? Also since Marciano and Dempsey are frequently touted as nothing more than CW's in the modern world of boxing do we not see them rise higher...Is a Dempsey or Marciano that hypothetically weighed the same as Ali or Louis even more devestating and worthy of moving up a spot or 2? Do lighter HW's deserve to leapfrog over other HW's that are heavier in a P4P sense? Should a # 4 marciano leap frog a #3 Holmes HW for example in a P4P sense. How do you adjust your HW rankings for P4P variables or do you choose not to?????
If you are going lb 4 lb then the lightest and best heavyweight should be number 1.....the heavier guys would slide down the list...
You raise some very good points 69, and these are certainly things not well understood by many as demonstrated by some P-4-P listing submitted at various times. Agree with BD above re heavies, and heavies are most usually the ones people get wrong. In fact I've seen lists that simply don't include heavies because people simply don't know how to work them in.
First thank you so much for thaking the time to make this eloquent post! Your astute observation has really helped to address this issue. If this is consistant with your posting history and thought process you will indeed be not only a valuable contributer on ESB, but a welcome addition to the classic forum and a valuable asset to society as a whole. Again I commend you for your thoughtfullness!!!!
Without putting much thought into this, I would only consider Marciano and Dempsey better than Ali in a pound for pound sense if the ratio of their power and speed to their size stayed exactly the same if there were a way to blow them up to more than 210 lbs at their peak. But that's not how physics works. It has been scientically proven that the ratio of power to mass decreases the more bigger something is. I tend to shy away from the P4P idea because it's far too complex to be accurate.
if you want the perfect place to look for p4p greatness it is the no limit weight division. fighters like : frazier , bonavena , tua , tyson , marciano , byrd , toney , orlin norris , ibragimov , even McCall (wins over bigger men in lewis , akiwande and the dangerous yanqui diaz) really proved their greatness in a very convincing manner there. be it either deffensive or offensive. and reconsidering the classic question of how would marciano do against ali , i think the frazier and bonavena fights are very relevant. marciano's top opponents were never much bigger than himself , and he never fought a single prime superheavy , the top of his time's hw division was composed of lightheavyweights and big lhw's whom chose to compete at the no-limit division against each other. marciano is the #1 or #2 lightheavy in all-times. had he chose so , he could have made 175. especially today. marciano is even smaller than the likes of frazier , bonavena and quarry. he could definitely do 175 today , i believe then too. all the ones whom disagree , consider dehydration before weigh-in in addition to the diet . marciano was down against former lightheavys , what would have happened to him had he fought the likes of ali , liston , bonavena , frazier and shavers. and they are not even superheavyweights (except ali , whom was a borderline superheavy)
You want my post filling out? Ok. I say "**** the pound for pound concept" because people don't understand it. It's being used commonly to undermine bigger fighters. I do believe the purpose of it was to compare skills of fighters without weight being a factor. So what's the deal with a heavyweight being rated if he is skilled and proven against the highest level? It's not their fault they weren't born a midget. Weight jumping has **** all to do with it too in my opinion. It's an impressive feat to fight above your natural fighting weight, but I don't consider it a part of judging "P4P" placings. Once again, **** the pound for pound concept.
