I can never understand hating Ali

I'm 44 and have seen both eras. The 70's HW fights were just as enthralling as the 90's fights, and in many cases were fought at a higher level of skill. Or, are you seriously prepared to tell me that Lewis-Akinwande was a better fight than Ali-Frazier III...? :think

 

If Ali and Frazier are becoming like Cain and Abel, Yellowmustard, then certainly Ali was Cain. Wasn't he the ******* of the two?

 

Frazier >>>>> Tua in terms of speed and skill. Maybe not in terms of power or chin, but the Joe's bob and weave wasn't a form of attack that Lewis ever really faced in the ring.

I'll see your Foreman/Roldan and raise you Tyson/Seldon. Foreman/Lyle may not have had much skill, but Norton/Holmes sure did. Holmes/Weaver was fought at a pretty high level, too. Ali/Foreman featured George cutting off the ring extremely well; and Ali adapting a game-plan on the fly. How well did Tyson adapt when faced with a guy who presented him with difficulty?

Look, I realize that you're fond of the 90's, Merchant. Why, you even tried to claim a fight in that decade as being the best of the previous ten year period. :lol. But the fact is, you're doing yourself a grave disservice of dismissing the 70's heavyweight scene as being one devoid of skill or quality. They were just as capable of producing moments of excellence as the 90's crop were.

 

Shavers ducked by Foreman and Frazier? Have you ever really looked at his record? He spent most of his career feasting on guys named Kenny Stand, Willie Fall, and Izzy Breethin. He was knocked OUT by Ron Stander. He eventually strung together a couple of "solid" wins before he was stopped in the FIRST round by Jerry Quarry.

Lemmy help you out here mustard. Stander and Quarry were destroyed by Joe Frazier.

Then he got his @$$ whipped by Bob Stallings, who was 20-25 at the time. He drew in a rematch with Jimmy Young and then got stopped by Ron Lyle.

I understand that they sent out a search team to find the win on his record that earned him his first title shot. I ain't holding my breath.

 

Holmes and Foreman were competitive in the division in the 90's; Ali had the size and (pre Manila) the speed to be a player, too. Frazier wasn't that much smaller than Holyfield, and if Bert Cooper could put Evander down, imagine what the Original Smoke could do. It does come down to preference...but I don't think either era truly eclipses the other in terms of quality, really. :yep

 

It is true that we tend to Romanticize that which we grew up with & what we were taught. And atleticism & size progresses over time. So maybe the '70's was overrated, but I am inclined to think they were on par with the 90's (which took us years to appreciate).

Size is one helpful factor, but it is dinimishing returns when you get to HW. Otherwise, you would have power lifters & guys in the NBA & NFL dominating-when a few approaching that size, but with less muscle-Lewis, K brothers-can dominate, but in a weak era.

Actually what Foreman (only when dehydrated ~ 220) & Holmes did when OLD can be used to show how they would have been dominant at their physical peak, or to disrespect the '90's. WHEN would you see guys in their '40's doing so well against top fighters? Foreman was too slow to take out guys he would have nailed a couple decades earlier.

Frazier was not unskilled, he had great combinations, workrate, toughness, & inside fighting. He was not "tiny", a bit under 6' & 205 or so before he got heavy at his peak, but more bottom heavy like Rocky. Cooper was trained by Frazier, but did NOT have his skill & toughness. I cannot see how his hook & tenacity would NOT beat Cooper, & Holyfield? Maybe. He was somehow not that impaired by his vision during his career (& his left arm did not straighten out completely) a testament to his SKILL of compensation.

Shavers was the ultimate "puncher's chance" fighter in ANY era. Again, I am in the middle on the size debate. It means something, but nothing like the difference for the lower divisions.

I do not think the 2nd tier fighters in the 70's were inferior to any crop in another era. Quarry, Bonaveno, Wepner, Chuvalo, Lyle, Bugner...'60's Terrell, Williams, Jones,Peralta for decades, a few others.

Ali had big holes in his game, but was fast enough to avoid much problems in the '60's then later savvy & tough enough. He did BEST against the big bruisers, before Manilla he would be favored against all of them.

 

Playing devil's advocate here...but how do you know Cooper did not have Frazier's skill or toughness?
Perhaps if Coop had stayed off the drugs he could have been every bit as good?

He is the closest thing to Frazier we've had since Joe retired, and Joe (until the bust up) was convinced Cooper was his heir, so to speak.

Look at the wars Cooper gave Mercer, Moorer & Holyfield. He lost all these fights, but he was fighting big, strong, hard-punching heavyweights...is it arguable that Ali and Foreman aside, Joe never faced the same combination of size, strength and technical skill in his era?

Could Joe almost KO the iron-chinned Holyfield with just one punch?

Not trying to disparage the great Joe Frazier at all, but the difference between Cooper and Frazier isn't as great as many think, in terms of overall ability. Cooper had Frazier's left hook but it was arguably a harder punch than Joe's.
(McCall said that Cooper hit him harder than anyone...considering that he faced monster punchers like Tyson, Lewis and Bruno, that says something.)

Cooper also has a better right hand and used the uppercut a lot more. I think Frazier had better defensive skills, but neither was Willie Pep either.

In terms of legacy Frazier is several notches above obviously, but had Cooper stayed off the coke, stayed dedicated and fought in Joe's era, I think he could conceivably have done just as well.

 

Like yourself,I've always been an Ali fan - Big time ! The thing about Muhammad,like any big famous personality,is that he's always going to polarise opinion. Very few people I've met are indifferent about him. On one side there are those like your good self and I who love him,and on the other side of the fence those who can't stand him.

It all makes for interesting,and sometimes passionate,debate.

 

Ali was a moral reprobate. He should have been socially isolated and ignored.

From his Playboy interview- 1975.

PLAYBOY: You're beginning to sound like a carbon copy of a white racist. Let's get it out front: Do you believe that lynching is the answer to interracial ***?

ALI: A black man should be killed if he's messing with a white woman. And white men have always done that. They lynched n****rs for even looking at a white woman; they'd call it reckless eyeballing and bring out the rope. Raping, patting, mischief, abusing, showing our women disrespect -- a man should die for that. And not just white men -- black men, too. We will kill you, and the brothers who don't kill you will get their behinds whipped and probably get killed themselves if they let it happen and don't do nothin' about it. Tell it to the President -- he ain't gonna do nothin' about it. Tell it to the FBI: We'll kill anybody who tries to mess around with our women. Ain't nobody gonna bother them.

PLAYBOY: And what if a Muslim woman wants to go out with non-Muslim blacks -- or white men, for that matter?

ALI: Then she dies. Kill her, too.


Playboy had a massive circulation in 1975. How many people read this and acted on it?