I can never understand hating Ali

He was under the influence of extremists for a time. A man learns and grows, though. For a much longer period, he gave no such interviews.

What makes you think Foreman might have been better than Ali? The eyeball test?

 

He was 33 years old in 1975. He knew exactly what he was saying.
I have never seen where he repudiated anything he said in that interview.

I wasn't aware that this thread was about Foreman.

 

What is wrong with truth?

You really need to get over your hatred of Joe Frazier, and you ought to research your hero Ali more thoroughly. He did in fact have white blood in him. I think it might have been from a great grandparent. People are well within their rights to believe changing your name is disrespectful to your family. Do you really think the black muslim religion of that time were a moderate group of folks preaching love and understanding? Of course a lot of people despised them, and Joe was as entitled to do so same as the next man.

Calling someone of mixed race a half breed, may not be polite, but it doesn't compare with calling someone an ape, plus all the other things Ali called Joe.

You are turning yourself into a joke with your defense of everything Ali said to Joe, but whinging like a little girl about Joe's riposte's. I've told you before the thing Joe did that was equally as bad was to ridicule the sick version of Ali. That is the ONLY thing he did wrong, anything else he said about Ali was both true, and justified.

 

That last bit was directed at Merchant's Ghost.


Wow, did not know the interview was conducted at 33. Does raise some flags.

 

He could have handled interviews like that a hell of a lot better though. He could have declined to comment or tried being a bit more diplomatic. But I guess that wasn't in his nature.

Once something is in print, it's there for life. He should have thought about that.

 

I have no doubt that he did believe what he was saying at that time. There's also little doubt in my mind that he's gained some wisdom since then. He did repudiate the NOI (whose viewpoints he expressed in that excerpt) following the conclusion of his career, so there's a chance that his views on the matter quoted may have changed as well.

 

Cooper MIGHT have been able to show the same skill & toughness as Frazier if he stayed clean. But skill means a mixture of natural talents & developed skills. Frazier was always more game than Cooper vs. FOreman, for example. Possibly Cooper did hit harder with a single blow. But even someone who did hit harder was not nearly as effective. Compariung Joe to Tua: Here's what Ron Lipton, a guy who referee'd a couple of Tua's fights, said about his left hook:


"Trust me on this,

I boxed with Joe Frazier, saw all his fights, mostly ringsisde and I travelled to do so. Saw him in Philly all the time in the gym and we stayed friends for years. Those of you that have my tape saw footage of this.

Anyway I refereed David Tua twice, against Dan Morgan and Rick Hunnicut. Frazier's hook was applied in relentless fashion in combos and in single blasts and levelled the best and wore down the best and it was just stupendous. One of the best of all time.

David Tua's left hook in one shot was the most heavy punch in the ring a human being could throw. It does not land cleanly much of the time. When it lands cleanly on the chin, people go unconscious. It is a frightening heavy dangerous knockout shot. The way he gets his awesome shoulder structure and tree trunk legs into it is just beyond belief when it lands. The sound of it on the head says it all. He almost killed both of the guys I mentioned and I had to use all my speed to get there to prevent just one more punch."

Joe also had a greater workrate, precision, infighting-& learned to deply the right more often. If Cooper stayed off drugs, worked harder...Who knows, but that is a big difference from reality, not putting in the same mental discipline & training, let alone the drugs. Holyfield was great at his best, but both erratic in performances, & I mark him down a great deal as a PED/drug user. He might have been or sbecome the best CW ever. But he transformed his (upper only) body into something not natural for him by using artifical, illegal, unnatural means.

Ali was cruel (& played upon racism) to Frazier & others, & never did really atone. He sent his son to Frazier after Manilla, Frazier very understandably said have him come himself. Frazier gave him money & worked hard to get Ali reinstated during his exile, it was a terrible betrayal. He never atoned for being a vicious racist, he had decades to do so. Ali was likely the best ever at his peak, very charming, did a great deal for civil rights/freedom with the draft issue, & had a great heart in some ways & inspired millions.

But he was like a malicious child in many ways, never came to terms with his Dark Side. To call him on these things is not hateful, like his rallying WITH the KK for segregation.

 

He didn't repudiate the NOI nor the beliefs he held when Elijah Muhammad ran the NOI.
He repudiated Louis Farrakhan who took over the NOI, whom he had a personal dislike for.

I have no idea if he has grown in wisdom. Some people grow in wisdom, others grow in their hatred. His "wisdom" may simply be in keeping his murderous thoughts away from the public.

 

Well, he's embraced Sufism in his autumn years, which is a far more moderate form of Islam than NOI;s views, and also more moderate than the more mainstream form of Sunni Islam that he converted to in 1975. So, if that's any indication, those "murderous thoughts" may have subsided by now.

Either way, he's neither saint nor demon, imo...Or, more accurately, he;s been both at different stages of his life. Pretty much the same that can be said for any human, really.

 

I don't think the typical human has publicly urged race murder through a national publication. I think it takes a sociopathic nutcase to do that.
I think Ali has mellowed about as much as Charles Manson has or as much as Heinrich Himmler would have.

 

Ali may have moderated his viciously hateful ide(a(l)s & casually endorsing murder for such crimes as interracial dating. Yet if so, we have no idea if he also takes responsibility & atones for his evil thoughts & conduct. Folks often are deluded about who they are & how bad they are. It sounds good & has *some* truth that Ali has been Saint & Devil like most of us. But the vast majority fof us living through the age exposed to tons of different ideas & through the mid '70's do NOT gleefully expose segregation & the most heinous violence & retribution. And this was after the Supreme Court Vindicated him & he began to be beloved despite his horrible ideas & treatment of Frazier, he had no excuse for his mostrous beliefs. This, & his continual general & racial humilation of his loyal supporter Joe Frazier, went beyond the normal run of some pettiness, having an affair, making these more normal mistakes.

It is too bad Frazier stayed bitter, he continually forgave Ali then reneged on it. But a friend taking a road trip to see him described him as punchy, shot memory, thought he was awarded all 3 fights with Ali. It is understandable, he was not the vicious instigator. Ali supposedly said it was all about promoting fights. Bull**** self-deception-he needed to make Frazier an ugly racial caricature, yet abbrogated for himself crazy ideas of racial pride & essentially a war state between the races? Ali seems a man who is still not able to own his own sins & darkness.

It was deeply cruel & destructive. He could have called Joe aside & asked him permission for the "show", or refrained. He was malicious & selfish, as Joe Louis said when carrying Patterson for to inflict a maximum beating.

In a case where someone was nasty to him, like Terrell re: calling him Clay, I do not fault him, a pro boxer gets a legal beating due to his nastiness, OK. But Ali went Beyond the Pale in the cases of Frazier & endorsing mayhem.

 

Regarding Cooper and Frazier its true that Bert had the potential, the raw ability to be similar to Smokin Joe.

As a result of his drug addiction and generally being a knucklehead {though a likable one} Cooper never had the discipline and the focus of the great Joe Frazier.

Joe lived and breathed boxing. His desire to be in top condition in his prime was a big part of his success. Nobody claims Frazier had the most ability of all time but he got the most out of what he had.

Cooper didn`t have much margin for error being a short heavyweight without much speed. Bert could crack no question about it. His conditioning and even his chin suffered as a result of his lifestyle.

Strictly in terms of power between Frazier and Cooper I wouldn`t be so quick to dismiss Frazier`s power. He could punch nonstop with concussive force for 15 rounds. Had Joe elected to plod around the ring and throw one or two big punches every 30 seconds he might have been similar to Tua.

That`s actually an easier way to fight. Take less chances and let everyone think your chin is better than it is. Brace yourself for an asswhipping like Tyson or Tua did when they shutdown their offense. Or fight to win the way Joe Frazier always did.

 

After a few rounds on the inside with Joe, Holyfield would be wishing he was in the ring with Tyson.:nono A man that actually keeps punching on the inside non stop. and punishes the body with consistency. Frazier` hook would sting Holyfield and he would respect it immediately.