I can rank Guzman as high as I want to P4P, he doesn't need a 'resume'.

Cerberus · Nov 19, 2007

Ok I'll play along... let's just say resumes really dont mean squat... still... what justification can you come up with to rank Guzman over Mayweather?...

...

......

.........

..... That's right. You can't. PBF does everything Guzman does, but better. And Floyd doesn't throw wild, looping shots that can easily be countered..

Very interested to hear why you have Kostya Tszyu over Mayweather.. Thats a damn joke right?

pejevan · Nov 19, 2007

Decebal said:

Resumes, rightly interpreted (see Amsterdam), are only good for determining how good someone's career has been, and how good a fighter was at a certain time, but not to determing how good someone is, unless you refer only to the most recent fights on the resume (last year at the outside, unless the fighter fights very rarely) and have no indication that the fighter's in question present form is not as good as that shown in those relevant fights.:deal
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The problem with "perceived" greatness (that is not based on an actual opposition) is that it is very much flawed. You can only determine how great a fighter by how he fights other great fighters too. Guzman might look great against Soto because stylistically, Soto is a great match-up for Guzman. Soto is not actually a speedster, (whose only great advantage at 130 was his size and respectable power) and whose resume is also questionable as his only decent opponent was against Juarez (a fighter who never elevates himself when it is championship fight similar to Viloria).

But if you look at the past 3 fights of Guzman, not all were actually impressive. Even the Davis fight was lackluster. Then when he made a good showing against Soto, he becomes the most hyped boxer in this forum.

Guzman is always a good fighter, no question about that. Despite his short-comings (which are plenty), he will always be a stylistic problem in whoever he faces. But in order for him to be great, he must defeat someone who is someone.

However, if you want to really make a ranking without resumes, then the title should have an asterisk stating that this is a beauy contest. 10 points for speed, 10 points for power, 10 points for ring generalship, so forth.

sues2nd · Nov 19, 2007

China_hand_Joe said:

Despite the fact he is a multiweight world champion, who is undeafeated and has never looked like being defeated, the P4P arguments are solid even without his spectacular resume. He is simply that good that talented. He is the 3rd or 4th best fighter we has seen in the last decade.

The correct/China_hand_Joe P4P list from 1998-present:

1. Calzaghe
2. Jones
3. Guzman or Tszyu
4. Tszyu or Guzman
5. Mayweather? (open to debate whether he should be this high)

You could see early on in Guzman's career he was talented, that his dominating performances would remain the same, as dominating performances even against world class opponents. And he has continued to prove China_hand_Joe and others to be correct.

The fact is you do not need legendary American based fighters on your resume to be ranked highly P4P. That is the wrong way of doing things which see people like 43 years old Bernard "I'm about to be humiliated by Joe Calzaghe" Hopkins being ranked number 4. And JMM being ranked highly for scraping past an old Barrera. You just need to be really, really skilled and talented and to realise that talent in the way Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tzsyu and Mayweather have.

There are no valid counter-arguments. "Who has he beat though" is not a legitimate argument when fighters have proven themselves at a certain level. You use your instincts to judge a fighter from videos, not wins over media hyped names. Who are only regarded highly due to the interests of American capitalism.

The fact is Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tszyu and Mayweather will always be better than Mosley, Oscar, Hopkins, Pacman no matter what famous names the latter have on their resumes. Famous names on resumes will not change the fact they are inferior fighters. The best are simply the best, achievements are all but neglible.
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Im cant believe the nonsense you spew on a regular basis. ****ing ridiculous.....atsch

China_hand_Joe · Nov 20, 2007

pejevan said:

The problem with "perceived" greatness (that is not based on an actual opposition) is that it is very much flawed. You can only determine how great a fighter by how he fights other great fighters too. Guzman might look great against Soto because stylistically, Soto is a great match-up for Guzman. Soto is not actually a speedster, (whose only great advantage at 130 was his size and respectable power) and whose resume is also questionable as his only decent opponent was against Juarez (a fighter who never elevates himself when it is championship fight similar to Viloria).

But if you look at the past 3 fights of Guzman, not all were actually impressive. Even the Davis fight was lackluster. Then when he made a good showing against Soto, he becomes the most hyped boxer in this forum.

Guzman is always a good fighter, no question about that. Despite his short-comings (which are plenty), he will always be a stylistic problem in whoever he faces. But in order for him to be great, he must defeat someone who is someone.

However, if you want to really make a ranking without resumes, then the title should have an asterisk stating that this is a beauy contest. 10 points for speed, 10 points for power, 10 points for ring generalship, so forth.
Click to expand...

Guzman lacks Mayweather's power (not a good thing!) now he is at super-feather.

However Guzman has better reflexes, speed and accuracy and has an undentable chin.

Guzman - Mayweather at 130 would be a great, closely fought matchup.

China_hand_Joe · Nov 20, 2007

sues2nd said:

Im cant believe the nonsense you spew on a regular basis. ****ing ridiculous.....atsch
Click to expand...

Please elaborate.

China_hand_Joe · Nov 20, 2007

charlievint said:

:rofl I stoped after you said KT was on the list as a HIGHLY SKILL Fighter. he's skilled but not on the level of DLH, Shane, Floyd, Joe C or Bhop! He just had great power and sense of distance to unload some of that unreal power and most of the time would get a KO, but he's not skilled like the ones I've mentioned.
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DLH and Mosley are not even close to Tszyu mate.

For instance Tszyu's timing was godlike and vastly, vastly superior. He was most likely poisoned when he lost to Phillips.

In terms of skill there are two tiers at the elite level-

Super skilled elite fighters
Calzaghe
Tszyu
Mayweather
Whitaker

And the lower one very skilled elite fighters
Oscar
Mosley
Kessler

[yt]wEV9dyIYwI4[/yt]

Tszyu possesses a scary skill-set and is vastly, vastly underrated.

Morrissey · Jan 4, 2008

China_hand_Joe said:

Guzman lacks Mayweather's power (not a good thing!) now he is at super-feather.

However Guzman has better reflexes, speed and accuracy and has an undentable chin.

Guzman - Mayweather at 130 would be a great, closely fought matchup.
Click to expand...

Guzman would have been knocked down several times enroute to a lopsided loss to his master..

He would have not dented PBF's chin..

196osh · Jan 4, 2008

Amsterdam said:

Precisely, people act as if Mayweather is unbeatable, a really good pressure fighter who is technical and accurate will defeat him handily, such as Cotto. Cotto will crush him.
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You think that? Actually? By what means. I also put a great deal of faith in what you say so im not taking the **** either I am surprised :think

Sweet Pea · Jan 4, 2008

China_hand_Joe said:

Despite the fact he is a multiweight world champion, who is undeafeated and has never looked like being defeated, the P4P arguments are solid even without his spectacular resume. He is simply that good that talented. He is the 3rd or 4th best fighter we has seen in the last decade.

The correct/China_hand_Joe P4P list from 1998-present:

1. Calzaghe
2. Jones
3. Guzman or Tszyu
4. Tszyu or Guzman
5. Mayweather? (open to debate whether he should be this high)

You could see early on in Guzman's career he was talented, that his dominating performances would remain the same, as dominating performances even against world class opponents. And he has continued to prove China_hand_Joe and others to be correct.

The fact is you do not need legendary American based fighters on your resume to be ranked highly P4P. That is the wrong way of doing things which see people like 43 years old Bernard "I'm about to be humiliated by Joe Calzaghe" Hopkins being ranked number 4. And JMM being ranked highly for scraping past an old Barrera. You just need to be really, really skilled and talented and to realise that talent in the way Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tzsyu and Mayweather have.

There are no valid counter-arguments. "Who has he beat though" is not a legitimate argument when fighters have proven themselves at a certain level. You use your instincts to judge a fighter from videos, not wins over media hyped names. Who are only regarded highly due to the interests of American capitalism.

The fact is Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tszyu and Mayweather will always be better than Mosley, Oscar, Hopkins, Pacman no matter what famous names the latter have on their resumes. Famous names on resumes will not change the fact they are inferior fighters. The best are simply the best, achievements are all but neglible.
Click to expand...

Guzman is better than Mayweather? This is why noone takes anything you say seriously. As well as Calzaghe over Jones, but we've pointed this out too much. And Tszyu that high?

walk with me · Jan 4, 2008

get off calzaghes dick

kg0208 · Jan 4, 2008

Well I have Gamboa as #1 p4p based on this new groundbreaking criteria.

PH|LLA · Jan 4, 2008

you are fools, i am actually the p4p #1.

chimba · Jan 4, 2008

sues2nd said:

Im cant believe the nonsense you spew on a regular basis. ****ing ridiculous.....atsch
Click to expand...

Believe it!

psychopath · Jan 4, 2008

China_hand_Joe said:

Despite the fact he is a multiweight world champion, who is undeafeated and has never looked like being defeated, the P4P arguments are solid even without his spectacular resume. He is simply that good that talented. He is the 3rd or 4th best fighter we has seen in the last decade.

The correct/China_hand_Joe P4P list from 1998-present:

1. Calzaghe
2. Jones
3. Guzman or Tszyu
4. Tszyu or Guzman
5. Mayweather? (open to debate whether he should be this high)

You could see early on in Guzman's career he was talented, that his dominating performances would remain the same, as dominating performances even against world class opponents. And he has continued to prove China_hand_Joe and others to be correct.

The fact is you do not need legendary American based fighters on your resume to be ranked highly P4P. That is the wrong way of doing things which see people like 43 years old Bernard "I'm about to be humiliated by Joe Calzaghe" Hopkins being ranked number 4. And JMM being ranked highly for scraping past an old Barrera. You just need to be really, really skilled and talented and to realise that talent in the way Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tzsyu and Mayweather have.

There are no valid counter-arguments. "Who has he beat though" is not a legitimate argument when fighters have proven themselves at a certain level. You use your instincts to judge a fighter from videos, not wins over media hyped names. Who are only regarded highly due to the interests of American capitalism.

The fact is Calzaghe, Jones, Guzman, Tszyu and Mayweather will always be better than Mosley, Oscar, Hopkins, Pacman no matter what famous names the latter have on their resumes. Famous names on resumes will not change the fact they are inferior fighters. The best are simply the best, achievements are all but neglible.
Click to expand...

Get off Calzaghe's dick brotha :yep . . . maybe it will make you're brain function better.

Mayweather is behind Tzsyu and Guzman????

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

:hi:

hellblazer · Jan 4, 2008

PH|LLA said:

you are fools, i am actually the p4p #1.
Click to expand...

:rofl:rofl

No, I'm the #1 P4P

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I can rank Guzman as high as I want to P4P, he doesn't need a 'resume'.

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I can rank Guzman as high as I want to P4P, he doesn't need a 'resume'.

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sues2nd Fading into Bolivian... Full Member

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