I don't believe that Quarry KO'd Norton in sparring

Lol. Falling apart at the seams under the weight of cool logic, knowledge and common sense.

Considering your outgoings, you display an extremely thin skin dealing with incomings which are relatively innocuous at any rate.

I remember a poster, aptly named Kamikaze, crashing and burning in similar fashion. Funny about that. Do you remember him? Bonzai!!

I will recede lest I be incorrectly damned by association.

 

When Norton was KO’d by Foreman he took about 4 full blooded power hits from George before going down but was still able to arise when the fight was stopped.

As to the first KD, as Norton was coming back up, Foreman landed a shot on him.

The ref applied a count - shortly after that, Ken was knocked down into the ropes - the ref came into separate - and again, as Ken straightened up with hands completely down - George took another free swing with the left - a deliberately illegal shot and that one caught Ken flush and hard but he still held his feet.

A glass chin would’ve collapsed upon that shot. Ken’s chin didn’t fold and it took another 4, absolute flush, right on the money bombs to put Ken down for the final time.

In fact, Foreman also caught Ken with a nice see you later left hook as Ken headed toward the canvas.

When Foreman put the pedal to the metal in that fight, his accuracy was as noteworthy as the power behind his punches.

 

I've always thought Norton's confidence particularly against punchers was never the same after Foreman, and pre-Foreman Norton would've faired much better against Shavers and Cooney. Of course, he was very past prime for the former and flat out shot against the latter.

I've always thought Norton gave his best performance in the second Ali bout, even though I think he lost clearly.

 

At this point it probably needs to be said again that Norton was pretty crap in the big scheme of things early career before turning everything around because of, of all things, a bloody book. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill was the name of it and it launched his 14 win streak and victory over Ali. He actually won the Napoleon Hill Award for positive thinking in 1973. He was a different man and fighter once he got things underway in earnest.

Strangely Mike Weaver was following a similar path as a quite average Heavyweight before Norton himself inspired some confidence and dedication out of him and he, like Norton, became so much better in the ring you would not think it was the same bloke. Weaver was 14-8 before finding his mojo and carving out a very good career. For a while he was likely the second best Heavyweight in the world (not saying he would beat all the other guys but he'd probably do better against the field than anyone excepoting Holmes) and one might even be able to claim that right at the end of the second Dokes fight.

 

Sparring is sparring, Norton is a greater fighter but Quarry had a nice legacy of his own. Two important figures of the time period, each with their own respect.

 

He has a serious vendetta against the 70's heavyweights for whatever reason. Foreman and Norton especially. I mean it was only a week ago he dug his heels in claiming Norton was a 1-hit-wonder champion like Douglas. In another thread, he argued with me till he was blue in the face insisting Norton had to do hardcore weight lifting to get his physique and constantly suggests the 70's boxers used PEDs.

 

Though tense, Norton actually had a good first round against an initially patient Foreman.

I think that opening round gave cause for Foreman to step it up quickly, Foreman going so far as landing a few illegal shots in his intensified efforts.

Norton was that guy who would give most fighters hell if they didn’t hit hard enough to badly hurt and/or knock him out. I also think Norton’s punch is perhaps a bit underrated - and his later career gains in weight likely lent to even better hitting power.

Ken really trained himself down in weight for a lot of his early fights but it’s interesting to see that he came in at 214 lbs for one fight in the late 60s and 216 lbs for another fight in the early 70s. Ken also went from 210 for the first Ali fight to just 205 for the rematch.

After the Foreman fight Norton’s weight substantively increased and he easily carried upward of 220 lb and ultimately over 220 lb without carrying spare flesh. You could maybe some weight work was involved but it seems he was allowing himself to carry extra, more natural weight.

 

Ken came across as an intelligent guy who considerately mapped his life out under less than ideal circumstances. He tried out hypnosis also, didn’t he, or was that just myth?

 

Some of the best boxers in history have gotten sparked in sparring. If it did happen, it's part of training sometimes, and would be taken as a learning experience .
Part of the "GAME".

 

Yes, and when you go point by point the broad arguments fall apart very quickly.

Of course Norton had a better resume than Douglas aside from their respective upset wins.

Also, one can deliberately apply narrow focus on just literal “W”s - but that doesn’t account for performances that are still outstanding nor does it account for razor thin decision losses or decisions that are highly contestable - Ken’s loss to Holmes being the perfect case in point.

Imo, Norton didn’t have the muscle mass to reflect hardcore weights though of course he might’ve dabbled in weights lightly - very few can literally say they never picked up a weight.

In fact, post career, Ken lamented that he didn’t do weights during his boxing career.

In another post. I suggested that a lot of the extra bulk Ken had later in his career was due to him not training himself down so acutely -

Among his recollections, Norton said he used to starve himself going into fights - he must’ve had some preconceived idea of what weight he “should”’come in at.

Perhaps Ken was deferring more to aesthetic metrics than practical, optimally functional fighting weight.

Ali also used to lament that he could never get rid of all his post exile flab around the middle but Ali was still exceptionally strong in the core.

Norton notably said that hitting Ali in the stomach was like punching a slab of concrete - though Ken did double Ali over dramatically (no mean feat) with a very nasty liver shot in their rubber match.

 

These are all some pretty strong replies here. Respect.

 

I could believe that Norton lifted weights and used PEDs, which after all were not illegal at that time. (The latter because they were tied into the weight training community during that period, and maybe available to Norton through other avenues.)

I would be much more surprised to find that they were *all* on PEDs.

 

Yeah, I tend to think more likely not (on both counts) for reasons I’ve already outlined - but of course, I couldn’t say for sure.

When commentating on one of Earnie’s fights, Quarry said that Shavers did weight training and I think Earnie’s physique was much more suggestive of having done some reasonable weight work than Norton’s.

Though I knew Bugner did lift weights (his first true love before boxing) I think his physique was also far more indicative of having done weights than was Norton’s.

Ken was just better genetically cut in terms of musculature than Joe.

Certainly, I think Joe’s prior, singularly dedicated weight work bit him on the *** in terms of muscle fatigue in the practise of boxing.

Joe’s arms were likely a bit too heavy for boxing (in ideal terms) and that might’ve lent to his less than ideal punch output in some fights.

 

I have some doubts Norton did hardcore lifting while he was in camp for fights in the 70's. The reason being, he was starving himself and cutting weight. What people don't realize about Norton's physique is that he's more of a lean skinny guy with very impressive shredded muscles. He wasn't all that "massive" and looks much smaller standing next to Ali, Cobb, and Foreman despite being the same height and similar weight. Sometimes skinny guys just have the right genes to look impressive. Maybe Norton did some lifting purely for aesthetics when he didn't have a fight coming up, but to bulk up and become huge demands lots and lots of calories and energy.

 

Totally agree. Look at Mike Weaver or Jumbo Cummings - those guys had some serious muscle mass.

Further proof of Norton’s aesthetic cut maybe that, from certain angles, his arms didn’t look that big at all whereas Foreman’s arms looked big any way you looked at them.