I don't think boxing skills have evolved

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Feb 14, 2018.


  1. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

    15,903
    7,636
    Mar 17, 2010
    I feel that mechanics go underrated.
    Being able to push off your back foot properly, with the right balance, is just as, if not more important than "evolved techniques."
     
    Giacomino likes this.
  2. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

    18,440
    9,579
    Jan 30, 2014
    I don't think anybody seriously denies that skills evolved at some point. The real question is when (if ever) did they stop evolving?
     
  3. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

    18,440
    9,579
    Jan 30, 2014
    Mechanics like that are literally Boxing 101. This is like saying that NFL fans underrate the importance of quarterbacks knowing how to use proper throwing motions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,122
    Jun 2, 2006
    Or at least severely damaged and your marquee value significantly diminished.
     
    BoboFett and swagdelfadeel like this.
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,122
    Jun 2, 2006
    ````````
    Between the wars I think there was an increase in skills,there have always been clever boxers but we saw a lot more of them from the 20's to the 40's imo.I don't see anymore skill in todays fighters than those in the 20's , 30's ,and 40's, boxing was king then ,you could go to fights almost every week, in some towns most days.Fighters learnt their trade and amassed long records.TV killed it in the US with its voracious demand for new faces, young fighters were not afforded the time to fully learn their trade and some found themselves relegated to journeyman status before they had even completely grasped the fundamentals of the game.
    There will always be a few exceptions, but by and large the skill set hasn't improved in the last 50 years imo.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,122
    Jun 2, 2006
    Most on here would probably class.Spinks,Foster,Hagler,Leonard,Hearns,Duran as modern fighters and therefore they have no place in this discussion. More relevant examples for comparison would be.
    175lbs Loughran,Delaney.160lbs Steele, Apostoli.147lbsMcLarnin,Ross.
    135lbs Leonard,Williams.imo
     
  7. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

    15,903
    7,636
    Mar 17, 2010
    And a mechanic like that is probably what boxers have been trying to master for thousands of years. Thus undermining the notion of the importance of "evolved technique."
    That's the significance.
     
    Giacomino likes this.
  8. Mr.DagoWop

    Mr.DagoWop Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    8,129
    1,762
    Jul 1, 2015
    It wasn't until the 90s that fighters started shifting towards peds and all that "modern training". Fighters from the first half of the 80s and prior pretty much count under the old school flag.
     
  9. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

    41,974
    4,029
    Sep 22, 2010
    they have evolved, but evolved just means they suit the current environment better than they would a previous environment.

    it doesnt mean better, or more advanced, though there are some fools who think that is the case.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,122
    Jun 2, 2006
    The question the OP is asking is, "have skills evolved?"

    Here is his quote.

    "Training methods have evolved, sure. But have skills evolved"

    Peds are not relevant to skill.
     
  11. bcr

    bcr Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,563
    1,440
    Dec 21, 2013
    You read the books of great trainers and they teached the basics just like today's trainers but with more dimensions, boxing is not like swimming or running where is all about evolving into faster athletes, boxing is about skills, that's why the likes of Mayweather, Pacquiao, Ward, Marquez and recently Lomachenko, Crawford, GGG and Rigondeaux are in a class apart even if they aren't always the biggest, fastest or strongest in the ring.
     
  12. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

    16,296
    11,745
    Sep 21, 2017
    Yeah, I don't think today's heavies are generally better for the most part, many are just bigger. Floyd Patterson if he fought say Hasim Rahman, IMO, would win at least 5/10 times. Patterson would win because of skill while Rahman would win based on size and strength. Left up to skill, Patterson would massacre Rahman. Rahman NEEDS to be bigger in order to be competitive with Patterson, even though Rahman would be the more "modern" fighter.
     
    Eddie Ezzard likes this.
  13. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

    16,296
    11,745
    Sep 21, 2017
    I think skills evolved at some point, but not that it evolved so much that modern fighters are that much more above old time fighters. I think with heavies, many would beat or be favored against old time heavies by virtue of size and strength, not necessarily (in some cases) because of skill level.

    For example, you'd likely favor Wlad Klitchsko over Floyd Patterson H2H or you'd favor Anthony Joshua over Max Schmeling H2H. But you'd do so mainly because Wlad and AJ have size and strength on their side. Patterson may have been just as skilled as a young Mike Tyson, but you'd probably favor Tyson in his prime over Wlad. The main difference between Tyson and Patterson would be their physical stats.

    Bigger men can afford to give away something in the way of skill when they are up against much smaller men. So while Wlad and AJ may not be as skilled (both are very skilled in their own right) as Schmeling or Patterson (arguably) they'd still likely prevail H2H. So it really isn't a case of Wlad and AJ just having this advanced level of modern skill that Patterson or Schmeling couldn't deal with, it'd be Wlad's and AJ's physical stats they couldn't cope with. If the top heavies of today were 185-200 pounds and not much bigger, I think this would be more obvious.
     
  14. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

    16,296
    11,745
    Sep 21, 2017
    If the top heavies of 2018 were 185-200 pounds like they were in 1918, 100 years ago, I think this would be more obvious. In my post I pointed out that Patterson, an old school HW, could be favored to beat a more modern fighter in Evander Holyfield, if the fight took place with the cruiser weight version of Holyfield. The 205+ pound heavyweight version of Holyfield would probably beat Patterson, not due to advanced boxing skills that didn't exist in the 1950's and 60's, but simply because he'd be the bigger, stronger and more physically imposing man in the ring and his skill level is close enough to Patterson's for size and strength to make up for the rest.

    The only reason we'd favor a young Mike Tyson to walk through say Ezzard Charles isn't because Tyson was just dramatically more skilled than Charles, although a young Tyson was highly skilled himself, but because of Tyson's physical stats in comparison to that of Ezzard Charles. If one could take Charles from 1949, give him weight lifting and the same secret sauce that Holyfield had, build Charles into a rock solid 210-220 pound fighter, while allowing him to keep his skill level or a close approximation thereof and allowing his ability to take a punch to increase in proportion to his size and then put him up against a 1988 Mike Tyson, things would get very interesting.

    A modern 210-220 pound version of Charles with the same 1940's boxing skills would have as much of a chance to beat a young Mike Tyson as a 1949 185 pound Charles would have of beating a prime Floyd Patterson. However, this shouldn't be the case if modern fighters are much more advanced, skill wise.
     
    mcvey likes this.
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    10,974
    5,433
    Feb 10, 2013
    Boxing skills have devolved slowly over the last 40 to 50 years and I think that rate of acceleration has increased over the last 20 years.
     
    greynotsoold likes this.