I have a new theory on Harry Greb

When Greb sparred with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien for the camera, it may be true that they were only mugging, but important clues can nonetheless be gleaned about Greb's style of fighting from this footage. We can see him dart in and out behind his extended left, come in under O'Brien with fists flying, and continue pitching as he moves back out again. Harry does not spend any time posing.

He doesn't appear to clench his fists much, which would account for his lack of arm weariness and the numerous thumbs he's reported to have inflicted. Those charges forward behind those flying fists also betray how he wound up butting Tunney at the outset of their first fight. Mickey Walker vividly described how "Greb was crawling all over me" after getting thumbed. With the kind of blinding speed Greb had, and his busy style, it's easy to understand how he could get away with all sorts of shenanigans.

Marvin Hagler was actually rather small for a middleweight. Greb was huge boned for a 5'8" man. When he and Walker shake hands for the camera at their contract signing, Mickey's hand looks almost like a baby's, nearly disappearing inside of Greb's huge mitt. He had the head and chin of a heavyweight. There are plenty of images revealing how muscular Harry was. He must have been a miserable SOB to deal with in the clinches.

After his series with Tunney was finished, Harry made a fortune by betting on Gene to win the title over Dempsey. In fact, he tried to talk Walker into betting on Tunney as well, but Mickey idolized Jack. Greb had been in the ring with both however, and experienced Gene's evolution first hand. He had to have tremendous smarts to deal with the likes of Tunney and the Gibbons boys.

By the time Greb was rounding into peak form, he'd obtained a massive amount of seasoning, double the amount most world class boxers get in an entire career today. Remember, he was only 32 when he died. When was the last time a 32 year old had 300 professional bouts under his belt?

It could be that Greb was also a genetic freak, like Armstrong and Pryor, with a larger than normal heart and uncommonly low pulse rate.

Should anybody rate Greb tops all time on a P4P listing, no quarrel will come from me on such a choice. Dempsey/Greb during the early years of Jack's reign would have been a no win proposition for Dempsey, but if I was given the choice between Dempsey/Wills or Dempsey/Greb, I would not place a bet on the outcome involving the smaller of two Harrys.

 

I guess that I may be in the minority...but I can't see the fuss is about Greb looking poor in the video...Greb is just fooling around, but you can see how he would attack an opponent effectively...Greb is very cognitive in regards to rolling and blocking blows while pressuring...I think he looks good! Looks like a tough ******* to figure out...and apparently he was!

 

Good thought out post.300 fights is a lot to pack in isn't it?

 

I think somebody like dick tiger stylistically would have beaten him, dick tiger always beat the fighters that came towards him and tried to overpower him. I know people will respond and say doesnt matter, greb ud but i think tiger is the exact person that greb would avoid.

 

I'm not going to venture a guess on Tiger/Greb fight...but Tiger did extremely well against attacking fighters...:think

 

I really enjoyed reading that post, Duodendum.

Good, well informed speculation.:good

 

In the hallowed halls of ESB, Harry Greb is a gryphon. The problem is that there is no such thing. If you take many of the posts written on him on this site over the years, you'd get the idea that his chin was steel -literally, his conditioning was better than any in the animal kingdom, his punching power devestating, his list of conquests included Godzilla and Zeus. And he did it all blindfolded!

What helps to feed this mythology is that there is no extant film by which we can see for ourselves. We have second-hand information, a couple of grainy clips, and our imagination.

I would assert that we would do him and ourselves justice if we brought him down from the heavens and put together sounder theories about his unprecedented success. What we'd come up with would at first be closer to the legend of Achilles than pure myth, but with a bit of objectivity and realism, we can do better than that.

Greb's success was built on two things, at least in my opinion. The first was his natural conditioning. He was, particularly when he trained like he did for Mickey Walker, in great shape. That alone helps because it is hard to beat a man who will not stop.

This combines well with his style. I suspect that it was akin to Armstrong and Pryor with constant angles. Greb was a swarmer to be sure, but there is a tape of him (see below) that gives us an idea of how he moved.

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...He fought on springs and pivots and the sparring with O' Brien shows Greb basing his attack on the other man's movements. Greb jumped in at safe angles after a shot is invited, thrown, and missed. At the time he fought Tunney, it was said that fighting Greb was like fighting a hornet's nest. That may have been what it felt like, but I think that his busyness masked his well-developed strategy. That style is problematic for more evolved fighters today. Superior boxers can be outworked and overwhelmed because it is hard to paint a masterpiece in a the midst of a storm.

Greb also understood something that many today still don't get... he broke your rythym. Boxing is often taught like a square dance. Watch sparring in the gyms... the movements are almost choreographed. Each man acts and then reacts on the queue provided by the opponent .... there is still a wooden style that is prevalent even though it looks fast and rythymic. What should be emphasized is how to breat the guys rythym -how to attack at unpredictable intervals.

Calzaghe understands this and in that way he is a relative of Greb.

Greb did it better than he and added things to it. He knew how to punch with varying speeds to throw off the guys timing. Varying the attack wasn't enough for him, he would vary the speed of the shots, the placement of shots, the number of shots.

Greb defied the opponent's rythym by defying his own.

He took away your comfort level in responding to anything because you didn't know what to respond to next, it was so dynamic -not static like most boxers then (and now).

This, I strongly suspect, was the secret of Greb.

Now, during Greb's era, there was generally less economy of movement, less efficient punching, less angles, and less of an understanding of leverage. Those fighters who did not have the era's tendencies in the 10s and 20s were stand-outs (Dempsey had beautiful leverage and Gans was a master). I suspect that Greb's style would not be as dominant against modern MWs because Greb would not be able to find as many stationary targets and holes. He would have to content with jabs that were committment jabs -not pawing nonsense. He would have to contend with more guys who understood angles and could pivot and attack efficiently off of the pivot, who could counter with shorter shots, and who could formulate a more versatile attack and counterattack. I think that history teaches nothing if not that there is nothing new under the sun. More fighters today would be able to see what Greb was doing and devise a proper response designed to neutralize his attack.

But that innate understanding of his about the overriding need to destroy the other guy's timing and 'ruin his boxing' is what would make him a superb competitor in any era.

 

This is a very sound and fair assessment of Greb...and his style would be very problematic for any era...it can be seen where his 'style' would be adaptable to fighting larger men in his era...while against smaller opponents he would likely employ his footspeed and close the distance to fight inside...We are still looking at a stylistic anomaly who fought using his physical gifts and experience to the maximum...All in all...a damn hard man to beat!

 

How was Pryor unique in that regard?

 

stonehands89 that was a fair assessment, well thought out but I have a simple problem with your conclusions about greb in a modern ring:


-He would have to contend with more guys who understood angles and could pivot and attack efficiently off of the pivot, who could counter with shorter shots, and who could formulate a more versatile attack and counterattack.

these modern day fighters have HUNDREDS of fights less than greb. even including AMATEUR fights. so even if they were able to counter, it is more likely than the modern fighter continuing having success countering greb than greb formulating a new plan and taking back control. I do not subscribe to today's modern fighters being technically superior, there are just too many instances of basic fight plans, lack of refined skills like feinting and 'ahem' fouls, all of which greb was allegedly very good at to believe that todays fighters would figure out quickly what he was doing and effectively neutralizing it. take guys like hopkins and toney, they do things that you rarely see nowadays, and are labled 'throwback' fighters, and they're very effective, but you don't see a lot of copying of them, lack of skill or lack of training?

then you must consider as some others have stated that maybe he just was a physical freak, a little known secret is that almost every sports superstar who dominates their sport is just so much better physically than their rivals, and if greb was absurdly strong AND fast for a man who weighs 160 pounds then his opponents are behind the 8 ball before they even start the match.

the safest thing to say about greb was that he was a master fighter, not invincible by any means, but his body of work stands as his monument to his fighting skill, film or no film he beat dozens of excellent fighters, and that should be enough.

wish we had some fight film on him though

 

No. He has an amazing legacy, one of the greatest ever. Also, in the estimation of his contemporaries he had exceptional skills and physical abilities.

Please tell me that band in your avatar is all about irony.

 

? Explain what your talking about first about megadeth.Also did you read the rest of my post,about the fact talking about greb frustrates me because id die to see some fight footage,seeminly you must have thought i was knocking the man,when in fact hes one of my fav fighters ever,in my top 5 of all time if i went in for having lists

 

Hah! Got to admit I was wasted when I wrote that. I didn't even see that ugly redhead egomaniac in the back. I'm more of a Venom fan.

I must admit Greb has that unknown, what-if factor about him precisely because he was never filmed in a fight. All we have are some tall tales and an incredibly impressive resume. The rest is pure speculation.

 

Would that be me? My view of Greb differs from yours, we've talked about this. You seem to think he's more of a pure pressure type like a Henry Armstrong or as you once said "similar style-wise to Glenn Johnson in the Roy Jones fight" or something along those lines. I am of the mind that he was more like a dirtier Calzaghe, though less of a boxer. In reports of his sparring sessions with Dempsey, that's how he was said to have boxed, popping in and out, smacking Dempsey around when in and popping back out so fast Dempsey couldn't catch him. Dempsey later remarked that Greb was faster than Benny Leonard. So, based on different accounts, I don't imagine he was just a straight forward swarmer.

 

BIG DEE HERE= Greb was a very fine defensive fight as he fought very large men. Heavyweights like Bill Brennan could remove a middleweights head for him so he had to be very good defensively.