I know this topic has been beaten to death, but...

Hard to rate indeed.... on one hand, he's unbeaten and while he fought too many second raters, he does have quality wins. A bit like Roy Jones perhaps.

He beat a peak Kessler quite decisively. I'm not sure if Kessler will retire as a great fighter, but he's an excellent boxer for sure. Plus, how often do you see a great beat an excellent boxer at his peak? Lacy is another win like that, although Lacy is less accomplished. Hopkins was old, but he proved how good he still was by winning every round against Pavlik afterwards. I don't think the Jones fight enhanced his legacy much; Jones was done.


He's hard to rate, but his ring generalship (adaptability) ranks with the best i've ever seen, as does his workrate, the unorthodoxness (southpaw, weird angles), his handrate, his chin and and dedication.



p.s. I thought the Hopkins fight was a clear, though somewhat close, win, especially when the latter started faking low blows and tried every "trick" to turn the tide... as for the Jones fight, it wasn't even close in my opinion.

 

Hard to rate, he was purposely steered clear of many top contenders at 168 for many many years. I could give you 20 names of top10 men he didn't face while facing the Tocker Pudwells of this world, during this period he was a laughing stock even on the British forum and wasn't even top20-30 P4P.

1997-2000 gave some decent contenders and ex titlists. From 2000-2006 (before Lacy) he has 1 worthwhile fight in the shape of Mitchell, that fight was stopped with Mitchell throwing the last shot of the fight, protesting the stoppage having KD'ed Joe prior to that.

He arguably lost to Hopkins and Reid. Hopkins and Jones were particularly old at 43 and 39 and this hurts him. Lacy has turned out to be a C Level gatekeeper type and his legacy largely depends on what Kessler goes on to do.

However unbeaten in 46 fights with unification against Lacy and Kessler with names like RJJ and BHOPS puts him up there probably with a Toney or Delahoya

 

Agreed plus the 'shots' that did land didnt land clean, were scuffed and were slaps. I'll take a flush neck snapping straight right over 3cuffed slaps an day of the week

 

Like all just-retired fighters, i think he will get more recognition as the years go by.

Something else that just crossed my mind: most great middleweights had their signature wins over smaller fighters. I.e., Hopkins had De la Hoya and Trinidad (though Pavlik was a legit middle). Hagler had Hearns and Duran. Monzon had Napoles, Valdez and Griffith. Calzaghe's main opponents were the same size.


And on him slapping: he does do that, but he mixes in plenty of real punches as well. And if he did this kind of damage by just slapping, he's the world pimp champion for sure:

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Yet Tarver and Glen Johnson stopped a Jones who was 3years younger. Bare in mind he landed around 1000shots on Lacy, the fact he didnt put him away says allot. If my girlfriend slapped me in my face 1000times I'd probably look worse than Lacy let aloen punched, then again she maybe a HW she never tells me her weight

Interestingly scuffing shots that arent clean sometimes are more likely to cut than clean solid shots with the way they grave the skin. Jones Jr's corner was bloody awful with the job they did on that cut

 

Pre1990 SMW-LHW was 1 weight class. Should we talk about all the men he didnt fight in his 168 weight class:
Otke (unified champ - beat more top men the Joe during the period)
Beyer (long time WBC champ)
Mundine (WBA champ and long time top10er, would he have beaten a faster more athletic boxer?)
Green (WBC interim and long time top10er)
Glen Johnson (pulled out 2-3 times)
Reid rematch (arguably lost wouldnt give a rematch and fought worse opp)
Froch (top 10 prospect, called him out for the last 3-4years)
Echols (fought Brewer who was clocked in 2 by Echols the year before)
Vanderpool/Larson/Tate/Nariello (more top 10 guys he didnt face)

NOW BARE IN MIND HE ONLY FACED TWO TOP10 GUYS FROM LATE 2000- EARLY 2006

Then theres:

Prime RJJ (actually admitted in an interview he didn't fancy it - fair play)
Pavlik (actually lied about offering Pavlik a fight when he didnt)
Tarver (could have got the fight a few years ago)
Dawson (current number 1 contender to JC's ring title - will he take it?)

Joe may have beat most of these but he didnt want to take risks that would lose his ZERO. This has to be accounted for, avoiding risks to your unbeaten record shouldn't bolster your claim