I Need Convincin'!

It's true that both were nearer their best the first time, but Manilla is more evenly contested I'd say. FOTC is quite clearly Joe's fight after the first five rds with Ali coming back in spurts. Manilla is in the balance until Ali pulls it out in the last two.

 

Eddie Futch: "Ali's legs weren't what they once were, and Joe hurt him against the ropes."

I don't think it is an arguable point (not reasonably so at least - you can after all argue anything).

 

I'm not necessarily arguing that, but I will say that prime Ali style of all that movement wasn't going to last his whole career, because he couldn't have kept it up- His style changed as he got older and more experienced.

Just like Frazier's style didn't lend itself to much longevity; because of it's nature, he couldn't fight like that at that level for a lengthy career.

 

I don't think I will try and convince you, nor do I think I could if I tried. Better in this case means more enjoyable to the viewer and there can never be a right or wrong answer in this case only what is.

For me the build up suspense, historical value of what I am watching in FOTC remains unrivaled by every fight but Schmeling/Louis. I find the action of not only the 2 best HW's of the day but 2 of the top 10 ever HW's at or near their primes again unrivaled by any other fight. The pace and skill level in this fight still amazes me.....and on the biased side since Frazier won it makes this one the infinitely more enjoyable one for me.

I don't think have swayed you, nor do I think I could be swayed. 2 enjoyable fights, 1 makes my list of favorites the 3rd misses (although still a very good fight). The important thing is the brilliance and beauty of boxing lives on to be appreciated, by whatever style or level of action/skill please you as the fan/viewer...For me that will always be FOTC!

 

FOTC was better...there's no comparing the version of Frazier in Manilla to the night he was at his undisputed peak...and Ali was better too..much closer to his prime as well. Frazier was unstoppable that night..in his greatest caree effort. Screw Manilla..FOTC rules!!

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but has not it been confirmed by several people that Ali didn't want to come out for the 15th? I forgot to quote when somebody said that it was BS Ali wasn't coming out for that round (davek?), but did you mean Dundee wouldn't have allowed him to quit on his stool, or that the idea that he even wanted to was pure fallacy?

 

It's not true. It was fabricated some 15 years afterwards.

 

The first fight is still the best in terms of quality, but the rubbermatch is obviously epic for other reasons.

 

Ok, thanks for the clarification!

 

Not sure that it was fabricated...In one of the Thrilla in manilla Docus Marvis frazier says that Willie "The Worm" Monroe heard and he can be seen jumping up and down behind Ali's corner...again that is not a direct confirmation, but enough to at least make it a feasible possibility.. I have also heard that someone..can't remember who from ali's corner acknowledged this as well.

 

I saw no footage of him jumpping up and down. He said he did, but I never saw it. I don't think anyone in Ali's corner has acknowledged it. Dundee doesn't.

Thing is, no mention was done of it at the time by anyone at ringside or in Ali's corner, and then much later Monroe says he heard it. In fact, at the time it was acknowledged that Ali had said something along those lines, but after the 10:th.

 

Technically,the first fight was better. The third one featured two proud fighters who knew,deep down,that this was going to be the last time they'd meet. Both fights were classic in their own ways. The second one was pretty good too.