Not in his division do I see him very high. Not p4p. He just wasn't that good. I am stirring a little bit of trouble to some fans but to me I don't see an argument for him being an ATG at all. How do you have him? In his division? 168lbs P4P? Best win? Do you consider him an ATG?
I think he was a superb fighter that pursued an interesting and partially unexplored style to great success. His sudden adjustment to jab against Kessler was genuinely thrilling to me. He was unbeaten against good opposition and although he didn't show enough ambition early enough for me, he had his demons and his reasons and achieved p4p status despite this. I don't think he's an ATG in the same way I do Gene Tunney or Juan Manuel Marquez, no, but he stands comaprisons with some very good fighters none-the-less.
Let's see. His strengths and positives: Best engine I have ever seen for a fighter that size Very good handspeed and footwork High boxing IQ and ability to adapt during the fight Unorthodox southpaw Very good chin Good resume and long reign Undefeated Weaknesses and negatives: Could be dropped by a straight right which is the main reason I believe Michael Spinks would have stopped him. Hopkins, who has ZERO knockouts at 175, dropped him for example. Despite his good, long resume, he has no defining win over a true prime great. People like to say he had no power, but the fact is he kept granite chinned Hopkins off of him. I personally don't like him because he's a lying tosser, but he is definitely a great fighter. I believe McGrain nailed it above as far as atg status is concerned.
I think he was probably better than his record. He was in a pretty indifferent SMW era and never fully tried to conquer the LHW division. But when I watch him, I see a fighter that looks very hard to beat.
I think pretty highly of him as a fighter. To be honest, I didn't until towards the end of his career when he beat Kessler. He put on a clinic in the Lacy fight but I think very highly of Kessler and thought that Kessler was going to beat him. Throw in the win against the very difficult to beat Hopkins and that is a very nice career. The only guy from his era that he didn't beat in his weight class was Ottke but I don't blame him for not wanting to go to Germany.
I suppose not rating a career undefeated two division lineal Champion with wins over Hopkins, Kessler, and Eubank is something to be proud of on this forum.
Great fighter, perhaps his overall body of work at 168 makes him #1 there but I believe prime for prime Jones beats him. He’s a lock for top 10 British for me, and one of the top 12 boxers of the last 30 years. Unique style, was (really) undisputed, reigned forever, good numbers, but there’s a lot of fluff on his resume. Some big wins like Eubank, Brewer (love this fight and Brewer), Mitchell, Lacy (he was underdog and I won money), Kessler, Hopkins.
Should be routinely rated as the number one super-middleweight ever, given his record there. Massive amount of defences; high end wins like Eubank and Kessler; with the odd good win among drab competition throughout the reign, against guys like Brewer, Reid, Mitchell, etc. McGrain touched on something important, Joe never showed enough ambition to be truly great IMO. Partly due to demons, as alluded to, but partly down to himself, Calzaghe just meandered through a lot of his reign and didn't actively seek out the challenges which could take him from a fringe great, to a bonafide all-time great. He could've stuck his neck on the line and made those important fights if he forced them and reasonably conceded what was needed. He didn't, however. Although just to also touch on something McGrain said, I don't think there's much daylight between Calzaghe and Marquez. He was a weird fighter. An enigma, of sorts. Started off as a proper puncher, but lost it as his hands went bad, then went from being a basic, but athletically gifted southpaw with good fundamentals, to an awesome technician with poor form due to his hands. He swapped power for smarts in the end, and it really paid off. Lots of shrewd examples of adjustments and gameplans, the most of obvious of them being the way he undressed and pressed Kessler; and used space and occupancy to completely defuse the unbelievably experienced amateur Jeff Lacy. #1 SMW, but prime Jones sparks him out. His fight with Hopkins is an all-time great war which I rewatch every few weeks. I just can't get enough of it.
If Eubanks is a high end win then so is Dawson for Ward. Because Eubanks came down form light heavy on two weeks notice to replace Steve Collins. . At least Dawson had a full camps when he came down from 175 to face Ward. Its theses type of utterances that make Calzaghe overrated. There's a good argument that Ward is #1 at SMW. Go through Joe's record and you'll find that the majority of his title defences were beated by other ordinary level guys around the same time Joe beat them. For example Reid gave Joe hell. In his very next fight Reid was beaten more divisively by Silvio Bronco
Difference being Eubank was naturally a bag middleweight whereas Dawson was a full-blown light-heavyweight. Getting down from 175 to 168 is much easier for a man who ventured to super-middle to ease weight making, than it was for a man who never liked getting down to 175 in the first place. Complete and utter false equivalency. You're going over something I already mentioned. 'the odd good win among drab competition throughout the reign'; 'Calzaghe just meandered through a lot of his reign'. I know he fought a lot of subpar opponents, but it's offset by the fact that he kept winning and in the end, did beat enough of the men who mattered. I'd take 20 defences over a win over Carl Froch everyday of the week. The Reid fight is a case of styles. Calzaghe still won, and IMO, won quite fairly.
Chad Dawson began his career at Middleweight.. Either way im not interested in excuses.. They were both drained fighters. Only one side gives credit for beating a drained husk while at the same time rubbishing the other guy for beating a drained husk. Its hypocrisy, simple as. And there's no way Joe beat Reid "quite fairly".. It was a very close fight. . The ref had to take a bogus point off Reid to give Joe a bit of leeway on the cards. In that case you believe Marco Huck is a greater CW than Evander Holyfield
