I think Povetkin is a bit overrated

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by catchwtboxing, Nov 23, 2024.


Where do you rank Povetkin

  1. Best heavy to never win a title

    7.4%
  2. 2-5 never to win a title

    37.0%
  3. 6-10 never to win a title

    14.8%
  4. 1-15 never to win a title

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Lower

    40.7%
  1. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have been thinking of this since reading through this thread:

    https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-best-heavyweight-to-never-hold-a-title.729004/

    DON'T GET IS TWISTED. He was a hell of a fighter. But he had four very big knocks against calling him the best to never win the title:

    1. PEDs bust. He actually had two, one of which was completely manufactured. The second one had legs, and everything he accomplished has to be seen through that lens.

    2. Big wins weren't that big. Byrd and Rahmen were both some degree of shot, so his big wins were probably Chagaev, Whyte, Chambers, and an either-way against Huck. Yeah, he has a lot of good fringe contenders on the resume, but at the very highest end, he was not exactly an inevitable uncrowned champ.

    3. Oh yeah, almost list to a cruiser. Again, not trying to oversell it. Captain Huck was a cruiserweight champ, it was probably the fight of his life, it was a FOTY candidate, and Povetkin pulled it out. I even had Povetkin winning. But I think a slight majority think that Marco did enough for the win.

    4. He ran screaming from Wladdy. Maybe some don't remember, but he was supposed to be the Rahman fight, and from what I remember, he just disappeared and could not be found. That's really strange, and if others have forgotten, I have not.

    Very, very good fighter, but I don't see him as above Tua, Quarry, Wills, Ike, etc.
     
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I don't know who number 1 is but he has to be Top 5.
     
  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Best to never win the title with the possible exception of Ike.
     
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  4. Charles White

    Charles White Chucker Full Member

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    I’ve thought he was overrated for many years now. Good fighter for his era but overrated overall.
     
  5. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    He is overrated here.

    His career basically consists of different phases:
    1. Win over shot Byrd and Chambers in a competitive fight.
    2. Linked up with Teddy Atlas and did nothing for a few years then beat slightly past it Chagaev in a competitive fight and Huck in a controversial decision.
    3. Got skunked by Wlad.
    4. Got totally juiced and beat top 20 guys Diamond Boy and Takam (glorified gatekeeper). And the win over Perez who was fringe top ten was nice, but the fight never really got started and Perez may have had a few drinks before the fight. (More glorified scrubs on Russian soil followed.)
    5. Lost to Joshua by stoppage while past it but had a little success.
    6. Hail Mary against Whyte while totally shot.

    His peak h2h level was obviously below elite and his resume was good, but he lacks an outstanding win. He also got twice with PEDs and therefore blew his chance to fight Wilder.
     
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  6. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Rahman was beyond shot.
     
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  7. Devon

    Devon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think the best fighters he beats are the likes of Mercer, Ibeabuchi, Tua, Lyle, Quarry, Ellis, Dokes etc, could beat Witherspoon.
     
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  8. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    I don't necessarily disagree.

    However, in fairness to Povetkin, we can assume that most of the post 80's heavies have been on PED's. I don't condone it and i obviously would prefer life bans for anyone who engages in it. However, i doubt Povetkin was unique in this.

    I think Povetkin was better than his resume suggests. He had a strong left hook, a hard right hand, uppercuts from both hands (see the left uppercut vs Whyte), lovely combinations, good handspeed and plenty of toughness.

    I think he didn't match so well vs incredibly large heavies like Wlad (who also clinched him 150 plus times) but he did match up well vs the medium sized and smaller ones.

    Captain Huck was a pretty good fighter. Yes, he was a cruiser but its not like Povetkin himself was a giant.

    I don't know why he doesn't have a better resume. Was he avoided or just not promoted well enough? Regardless, i think he had an excellent skillset and i think he was more suited to the 60's and 70's era than his own era.
     
  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    1. Atlas wasted a couple of his prime years after he beat Chambers trying to fix him or some nonsense like that.
    2. He got the same large purses in Russia (poet Wlad) whether he fought top 30 guys or top 10 guys.
    3. He failed to fight Wilder and Stiverne followed by Wilder due to PEDs.
     
  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    He was a good contender and likely would have had some sort of rating in any era. But that’s about as far as I’d take it
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Ever heard of a guy called Cleveland Williams?
     
  12. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very feel me good. Full Member

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    I agree with some of your points, but I still think he's amongst the very best to never win a title.

    "1. PEDs bust. He actually had two, one of which was completely manufactured. The second one had legs, and everything he accomplished has to be seen through that lens."

    I don't see this as an issue since every top HW since at least the 80s has been on some type of performance enhancers. Him getting caught puts it beyond all doubt in his case, but realistically are we to assume that the likes of Tua, Ike etc weren't also heavily on the juice? It's just a reality of the sport at this point.

    "2. Big wins weren't that big. Byrd and Rahmen were both some degree of shot, so his big wins were probably Chagaev, Whyte, Chambers, and an either-way against Huck. Yeah, he has a lot of good fringe contenders on the resume, but at the very highest end, he was not exactly an inevitable uncrowned champ."

    This is a fair point. He has one of those very deep resumes without any truly great or defining wins to elevate him. I do just about rate Byrd at the time Povetkin beat him, but Rahman was completely washed up and not worth considering. I also rate the Chambers that Povetkin fought who was still a very good and tricky fighter back then, and just about rate the version of Chagaev he beat (though he was past his prime as well). Whyte was a great victory and probably his best win, especially as Povetkin was one foot out the retirement door and could barely move anymore. Takam and Perez I think are v. good wins as well. I also rate his win over Cedric Boswell who was quite a solid but under the radar guy, and a relatively prime Charr, Hammer, Duhaupas and Wach aren't awful to have on his resume as well. Huck is a very good win if you give it to him.

    "3. Oh yeah, almost list to a cruiser. Again, not trying to oversell it. Captain Huck was a cruiserweight champ, it was probably the fight of his life, it was a FOTY candidate, and Povetkin pulled it out. I even had Povetkin winning. But I think a slight majority think that Marco did enough for the win."

    Not an issue for me, especially if you're comparing Povetkin to older HWs who might be considered CWs these days anyway. Huck was a lean 210 on the night which is Earnie Shavers or Max Baer territory, and has an argument himself for being one of the best CWs of the early 2000s, and a very wild and dangerous guy in his prime. Huck had the eye-catching moments where he nearly had Povetkin out on his feet (practically did by the end of the final round) while Povetkin controlled the majority of the fight with solid meat and potatoes work that nabbed more of the rounds. Was not a good look for Povetkin at all, but I think he probably won it. Just.

    "4. He ran screaming from Wladdy. Maybe some don't remember, but he was supposed to be the Rahman fight, and from what I remember, he just disappeared and could not be found. That's really strange, and if others have forgotten, I have not."

    Yes, I remember this. He ducked Wlad for a number of years, and even ended up fighting a dark exhibition against Bert Cooper or someone like that around that time. This was when he was with Atlas. His opposition was dire and his performances sucked. Ironically, when he lost to Wlad he seemed to find his balls and became the no-nonsense knockout artist people remember him as today.

    So is he overrated? That always comes down to how highly you rate him to begin with. I think he was a very solid, skilled, physically and mentally tough combination puncher that was in many ways a throwback to an earlier era where fighters routinely fought in phonebooths, but who lacked something that would have elevated him to the upper echelon and was also prone to letting himself get manhandled by larger or dirtier fighters as happened in the Wlad and Huck fights. He could have definitely become a legit champion in another era, but I don't see him ever being the clearcut number one past say the 1940s onwards. He just had a few too many flaws and stylistic limitations.
     
  13. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Povetkin was gifted a WBA regular belt.

    Here’s who he defended it against:

    Cedric Boswell: Past age 40, not considered a contender by anyone who matters.

    Marco Huck: Cruiserweight. Life-and-death fight.

    Hasim Rahman: Also 40-ish and shot.

    Andzjev Walrus: Or whatever his name is. Absolute nobody.

    Then he fought Wlad. Everyone talks about Wlad holding but watch what Povetkin does in that fight. Over and over he wades in and thrusts both of his arms straight out under Klitschko’s armpits. There’s even points where Wlad raises both hands above his head to show he’s not holding and Povetkin still keeps his arms thrust straight out. Doesn’t try to body punch or keep his arms tight to avoid being ‘held’ (as in Wlad didn’t raise his arms), merely throws his arms out. He didn’t want to fight. I suspect he was scared to death.

    After that he failed two drug tests that cost him title fights. It was reported that he went to some obscure town in Spain before training camps … a town known only for being a place a lot of Tour de France guys also went to before failing drug tests. His explanation? He happened to pick that town to make fishing trips — from Russia, lol.

    He was juiced to the gills when he made his most significant ‘accomplishments’ (remind me what those were) and he tested hot twice. No ruling ever said he did not take meldonium (the first failed test) … and even his people never asserted that he didn’t, just that they claimed he took it before it went on the banned list. (Yet mysteriously he passed three tests and got popped on the fourth by something they claimed was in his body all along).

    OK, give him the benefit of the doubt. He had previously used a not-yet-illegal PED. Cost him a title shot and months off his career. So what does he do when he comes back? He melts a pee cup with ostarine in this system … so the ‘innocent’ guy suddenly started using PEDs AFTER he was clean before that. Ha-effing-ha.

    Then he picked up a few paydays as a gatekeeper type.

    Nowhere close to being the best heavyweight to never win the title. That’s a complete joke.
     
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  14. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    I'll challenge that:

    Better resumes:
    1. Wills
    2. Langford
    3. Folley
    4. Quarry
    5. Young

    H2H (arguably)
    1. Ortiz has a worse resume but outperformed him in his fights at the top 5 contender level (Jennings compared to Chagaev) and championship level (Wilder x2 compared to Joshua and Wlad). He also never had a close fight against a guy he should've beaten easily like Huck and looked more formidable while ancient against Martin and Ruiz than Povetkin did in the Whyte fights, despite Povetkin bailing himself out in the first one.
    2. Ibeabuchi
    3. Ruddock performed better at elite level in the Tyson fights than Povetkin did against Wlad and Joshua
    4. Mercer also performed better at elite level against Lewis and Holyfield and is pretty damn close on resume for smashing Damiani and Morrison.

    Tua is arguable in both categories.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2024
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  15. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very feel me good. Full Member

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    Well, for a period around the early 2010s when he was with Atlas he seemed to go through a bum beating period, fighting the likes of Jason Estrada, Javier Mora, Teke Oruh, Leo Nolan, Taurus Sykes, and Nicolai Firtha. This was after his wins against Byrd and Chambers. There were definitely opportunities there where he could have fought much better fighters than he did, but either Atlas or someone in his team or Povetkin himself didn't feel confident that he wouldn't have shipped a loss during this time.