I think prime Mike Tyson could have dominated the early 1970's heavyweight scene

Your arguments are hypocritical, intentionally misleading, and down right incorrect. As such I have no reason to continue. "don't bs me. I don't like that" You're a clown.

 

How one can look at foreman punching himself out in zaire and getting floored twice then go on to win by ko to win fight of the year against lyle, then some how conclude that Tyson had more heart because he fumbled to find his mouth piece and failed to beat the count is classic intellectual dishonesty.

I believe ive already mentioned that to punch yourself out in hot humid weather requires heart in the first place. A fighter who isn't trying to win isnt going to punch himself out and try to win despite losing most of the rounds and getting nailed by counters over and over. I would also like to point out that only someone who has never boxed would be unfamiliar with just how heavy and lethargic you feel while in that state. For foreman to stumble over his own punches, lean into the ropes and be covered in sweat and barely able to lift his arms are all clear signs he gave his all.

As for the knockdown, i believe ive already posted a clip explaining it. And in that sort of groggy state even a light heavyweight could knock a fighter down. Foreman was counted out because of bad corner advice. At no point in his career was he rendered unconscious even at his worst.

The valiant effort in the Lyle fight speaks for itself. Tyson was in similar trouble against Douglas and Holyfield and failed to rally back and win, and that's all that matters. I don't doubt that Tyson tried, the point is he failed.

Tyson was not in that sort of trouble against Ruddock. "Oh so you're marking it against him for not getting dropped by Ruddock" no, I'm comparing apples to apples. The Ruddock fight is an orange. If the discussion is about how foreman and tyson did under pressure while badly hurt, the comparison only works if you bring up a fight where foreman got nailed hard but didnt go down (like say Frazier or Cooney's hooks). Tyson was never groggy or down against ruddock but he was against douglas and holyfield so compare it to when foreman was down and groggy against Ali, Lyle, etc.

If you bring up his lack of focus outside the ring thats his own damn fault and doesnt help the whole "heart" argument people keep pushing. Tyson never won a fight he was losing, Foreman did it twice. There is no comparison.

 

Yeah I've stopped trying to reason with the guy. His arguments are hypocritical, idiotic, deceitful, and intentionally misleading.

 

By that standard, I'd agree. But Pinklon was fully prepared and he got back with Angelo Dundee for the Tyson fight. Dundee wasn't there for the Berbick fight.

 

It was great talking to you swag.

 

Thanks for that Feather. Saved me the trouble. You can't really reply to someone who thinks scrambling around on the canvas trying to put your mouthpiece back in so you can resume getting your head kicked in doesn't show as much fighting heart as someone who sits on the canvas looking at his corner while the ref counts ten. Saying it was Foreman's corner's fault is yet another excuse that Swag has made - exclusively for Foreman - throughout the thread. Here they are; ring rust v Lyle, muggy conditions v Ali, exhausted v Young, crap corner v Ali (that's a laugh. Tyson's corner in Tokyo was the very definition of crap).

And like you say, it was no 'vicious combo' that kayoed George. It was a one two from a man who, while heralded as the best ever, was never considered much more than a stiff puncher at best. It was the same one two that the supposedly glass jaws of Floyd Patterson and Ken Norton absorbed time and again. Foreman was knocked out because the nasty man he was fighting wouldn't go down like he was supposed to. And Swag citing the cards as evidence that Foreman had endured a terrible beating is disingenuous. How the hell did he manage to be way behind against a man who was lying on the ropes covering up? Up to when it ended, it was a relatively close affair. Anyone should be able to see that.

Foreman from career 1 was considered, after the event as a big 'what if' who lacked the true fighting heart and tough mentality to be great - as demonstrated by quitting the sport at age 28. The fact he came back and showed great chin and heart in career 2 has no bearing on the chin and heart he showed in career 1; in the same way, failing to knock out the likes of Savarese, Morrison, Grimsley, Schulz or Alex Stewart in career 2 shouldn't detract from the power he showed in career 1.

Anyway. My view, for what it's worth.

 

Not going to go over too much of this as I have already covered it in previous posts and we will have to agree to disagree but you make yourself look a twat calling people 'ridiculous' and 'biased' when they make comments backed up by evidence just because they don't share your opinion.

Speaking of 'ridiculous' look what someone posted...

Typical Tyson fanboyism. If he really wanted to continue he would've gotten up immediately and let the ref put his mouth piece in.

How about I say something along these lines? Typical Foreman fanboyism. If he had really wanted to continue, he would've gotten up immediately and not bothered to look at his corner while the ref was counting to ten.

Would that not be a fair point?

 

I understand now. Cheers Rules. That version of Bowe put on a great show but, yes, you can't rate him too highly based on one show.

Not 100% sure I'd agree. I am in the camp that wonders if Bowe's chin withstands a Tyson bomb but he would certainly have been the biggest test Tyson faced at that point for sure. Anyhow, thanks for explanation. All the best.

 

Thanks @Eddie Ezzard. For me at least, the Bowe that beat Holy could have beaten quite a few of the champs rated above him (I have Bowe #15 ATG, a bit under Tyson, who's at #10). That includes Mike, Lewis, Wlad, Vitali, Frazier. On that night, Bowe was one of the greatest heavies who ever lived...though I'm first to concur he took way too many shots (so did Foreman and pre-Steward Lewis).

 

I didn't see Foreman-Ali as close at all, though I respect your opinion.

Looked to me as though Ali won every round...there was one that was close (sorry, can't remember which offhand).

Every time it looked like George was onto something he got whacked by quick, tight, perfect right hands.

I love Ali (who, along with Holmes and George is my favorite fighter), but watching the Zaire fight can be a bummer for me. Hate to see the big guy look so bad in pretty much every round.

 

Evening Rules. He was also one of the nicest. Its a shame Bowe let himself down with the Donald cheap shot and some other antics as I always felt he was a genuinely good-hearted guy. Respectful, humorous, affable. I loved how he and Evander got on so well until fight time when they just kicked the shite out of each other, fouled etc then were each other's biggest fans afterwards.

Given the tough start he had, he seemed to have a decent set of values and his lowest moment - being arrested for kidnapping his wife and kids - seemed to me to be borne out of love for his family. Of course I don't know what really happened so that might be a load of bollocks but I can only base my opinion on what I know. Even the way he got out of shape was almost childlike in its innocence - overeating rather than drink, drugs or womanising (not that I would judge a fighter for going down that path. If I was rich and famous and not the minger that I am it's what I'd do).

Anyhow this is about Bowe not me. As you say, on his best night he looked amazing. His legacy of the Holyfield trilogy will live longer in the minds of many than anything achieved by several heavies who rank above him in an ATG list.

 

I see the Ali vs. Foreman fight has now been turned into a one-sided beat down by Ali, who won every single round comfortably prior to the KO. Nonsense.

 

It wasnt one sided but all 3 judges had Ali ahead at the time of the KO and so did a lot of people watching it objectively. Ali was in control for the most part.

 

What makes you think Vitali could be the top dog? Could he cope with Ali's speed/skills? Foreman's power and aggression? Frazier's relentless pressure? Even Norton presents problems with his boxing skills/awkwardness. Vitali isn't a really a big puncher himself. He was tougher than his brother but not as talented offensively.