I want an insite into the mind of those rating Bernard Hopkins amongst the top 5 P4P

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007.


Page 4 of 23
  1. Mind Reader

    Mind Reader J-U-ICE Full Member

    16,769
    32
    Oct 26, 2006
    Roy Jones isn't inside the top 20 p4p greatest of all time, but H2H he is easily a top 10.
     
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    #46
  2. DanePugilist

    DanePugilist God vs God - Death Angel Full Member

    6,837
    2
    Oct 14, 2006
    Resumes are names. Well known names doesn't necessarily equal the same amount of quality.

    Just the fact that Tarver is glorified as a big win tells this story.
     
    DanePugilist, Aug 28, 2007
    DanePugilist, Aug 28, 2007
    #47
  3. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

    18,436
    20
    Jan 16, 2005
    He's #1 H2H for 160-175, no doubt. But you'll get in guys who argue that Harry Greb would beat him, so why bother?:lol:
     
    Amsterdam, Aug 28, 2007
    Amsterdam, Aug 28, 2007
    #48
  4. Marc

    Marc Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,971
    0
    Apr 7, 2007
    roy jones wouldnt catch willie pep with a punch either. remember he did win a round without throwing a punch. he was a featherweight? who cares. old school fighters are superhuman and are the shiat.
     
    Marc, Aug 28, 2007
    Marc, Aug 28, 2007
    #49
  5. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    Ok. I disagree, on the definition of P4P here. I consider P4P and H2H pretty interchangable. I consider that both purely based on the reality of good boxers actually are.

    A list of the 10 greatest fighters around today would be highly dependant on resume, so Hopkins would fair well.



    Now imagine Hopkins' arms have fallen off. We cannot legitimately claim he is still a top 10 P4P fighter in this situation. No resume will change that, he simply isn't an elite fighter anymore. Getting old should be considered the same as your arms falling off where P4P is concerned.

    Now again imagine Hopkins' arms have fallen off and he (somehow) continues fighting, what we can still do is list him as is one of the 5 greatest active fighters around. He resume places him that high in a list of the 10 greatest active fighters.

    The dimensions of the term P4P do not include resume, only weight and how good a boxer someone is, it is purely about how good a boxer is at their respective weight. Resume can sometimes indicate quality, but it is not the deciding factor, the quality of the fighter is, regardless of their resume.




    P4P and P4P greatest are very different things. The P4P lists in RING are supposedly attempt at the P4P best - which is why the high placement of Hopkins is incredibly dubious indeed.
     
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    #50
  6. The Whaler

    The Whaler My dog be thorough. Full Member

    1,265
    3
    Aug 3, 2006
    Hopkins would be the greatest armless fighter in history amongst all armless fighters.
     
    The Whaler, Aug 28, 2007
    The Whaler, Aug 28, 2007
    #51
  7. KO Boxing

    KO Boxing Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,055
    4
    Apr 30, 2006
    Well Kessler is the first top TWENTY p4per Calzaghe is facing... Lacy woulda been, what? Top 20/30 in the world at the time? So how is a fighter in the top ten without actually beating anyone good, i.e. top ten p4p? Let alone being subtely argued as no. 1 (all time by some, now for others).

    Cause guys like Reid, Mitchell, Brewer, and Lacy were no where near top ten p4p in the world.

    But anyway, Hopkins is rated highly because he beat other top p4pers (both Wright [top 5, whose only blemish in recent times was a controversial draw to Taylor] and Tarver [top 10], following two controversial losses to Taylor [who's now universally ranked in the top 10]. Top 5 may be stretching it a bit, but a p4p list is purely subjective and having him ANYWHERE in the top 10 is arguable...

    One thing that's NOT arguable is Calzaghe being p4p no. 1... :D :bbb Bring it!
     
    KO Boxing, Aug 28, 2007
    KO Boxing, Aug 28, 2007
    #52
  8. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    Hopkins has never beaten a top 10 P4P fighter.

    Whilst weighing 160 lbs Oscar was not a top 10 P4P fighter, he isn't good at that weight.

    Whilst weighing 160, Trinidad was not a top 10 P4P fighter, he was far from his best at that weight.

    Whilst weighing 170, Wright was not a top 10 P4P fighter. Wright at LMW would be a top 10 P4P fighter a few years ago, so beating him at that weight would prove you P4P credentials.


    They were all names with greatness associated with them, so by beating them Hopkins gained greatness, he did not prove himself to be rated right at the top of the P4P rankings.
     
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    #53
  9. MSTR

    MSTR More Speed Than Roy!!!!! Full Member

    9,247
    2
    Feb 19, 2005
    No because then he would be retired. I believe he deserves his spot. I know the point you are trying to make, but unfortunatley to judge p4p lists on ability alone would leave it far to open to bias and interpretation. The only "fair" way to really go about it is to judge performaces against top opponents. The only major thing I disagree with in regards to how the ring chooses its rankings, is that I think more credit should be given for defeating good fighters in impressive fashion e.g. Totally dominating a number 1 contender, instead of focusing too much on victories over boxings elite.
     
    MSTR, Aug 28, 2007
    MSTR, Aug 28, 2007
    #54
  10. Mind Reader

    Mind Reader J-U-ICE Full Member

    16,769
    32
    Oct 26, 2006
    :lol:
     
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    #55
  11. Mind Reader

    Mind Reader J-U-ICE Full Member

    16,769
    32
    Oct 26, 2006

    I can see your point.
     
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    Mind Reader, Aug 28, 2007
    #56
  12. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

    18,436
    20
    Jan 16, 2005
    Yes, it would be a biased hell land, but in the end, a lot of guys would get ranked and more fights made to truly see who is the best.:yep

    Couldn't happen of course, but CHJ's line of thinking in this area goes along with the match making that we all want.
     
    Amsterdam, Aug 28, 2007
    Amsterdam, Aug 28, 2007
    #57
  13. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006

    That could only be a good thing.

    The current format is open to incredible bias, that is quite apparent, with Tarver being top 10 last year! With resumes ignored, people would be more free from the American Boxing medias opinion to pick more genuine lists, not pressured to pick fighters like Tarver for fighting past prime names like Jones.
     
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Aug 28, 2007
    #58
  14. MSTR

    MSTR More Speed Than Roy!!!!! Full Member

    9,247
    2
    Feb 19, 2005
    An undefeated Trinidad who had just KO'd William Joppy in brutal fashion at 160 would most definitely have been p4p material.
     
    MSTR, Aug 28, 2007
    MSTR, Aug 28, 2007
    #59
  15. MagnificentMatt

    MagnificentMatt Beterbiev literally kills Plant and McCumby 2v1 Full Member

    4,563
    2,200
    Nov 11, 2006
    Either that or you went into their heads with your powers and made them believe otherwise. :thumbsup
     
    MagnificentMatt, Aug 28, 2007
    MagnificentMatt, Aug 28, 2007
    #60
Page 4 of 23