I was wrong about Joshua

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by JordanK2406, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. Bondy365

    Bondy365 Member Full Member

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    Surely its Usyk then. Just absolutely battered and humiliated the supposed best resume fighter?

    Further to that Fury has twice beaten current champions on their own turf. AJ beat damaged goods in Klitschko who was well past his prime. His only good win on paper is a borefest with Parker. When we tried to build a Fury or Wilder fight and build a name in the US he got knocked out badly by a short fat Andy Ruiz
     
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  2. Furious

    Furious Well-Known Member Full Member

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    For me, Fury needs to flesh out his resume a bit. He needs to beat Wilder and then (assuming he wins) beat Whyte. Assuming he also wins that he can then fight for the undisputed title.

    Timeline wise, if Joshua wins the rematch, that may not work out very easily as Usyk and Joshua would probably have to fight a 3rd time.. but on paper that's what I feel Fury needs to do to bring his resume up to where it probably should be for someone of his talent.
     
  3. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile Taste it all! Full Member

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    We need to grade all of that on a curve. Guys who don't take any chances fighting the best and have no losses don't have good resumes. Maybe, we ought to compare resumes across multiple categories. A loss isn't a loss if a win isn't a win. We don't give credit to the padded record people for crushing a tomato can; so maybe we don't need to take credit away from guys who get beat by elite fighters? Work with me here. You know how Ray Robinson had 174 victories, but only 45 of those were over foes rated in the top ten? You prorate that. I tend to do that with all fighters. Don't really acknowledge that amateur record or the pre-championship level apprenticeship. How do they do against contenders, guys in their own class?

    There's a website where someone created this massive spread sheet to try and figure out which fighter hit the hardest. He wasn't happy with just going to their records and saying "Well, Rocky Marciano knocked out 88% of his opponents, with 43 KOs, so therefore he's the strongest." He dug into the data and was like, only six of those were in championship fights, and the average weight of the people he KO'd was 185 lbs. The guy was doing things like looking at people's records in title fights, average weight of opponents, average record of opponents that they KO'd. Sure, Deontay Wilder knocked out a lot of people, but their records weren't stellar. Should it count if they aren't ranked in the top 20 or maybe even the top 30? Remember that LaMar Clark had 42 consecutive knockouts but a 5-0 Cassius Clay finished him in a round and a half.

    Yes, Lomachenko has a record of 15-2, which on it's face isn't impressive, but 15 of those were title fights. Do you hear what I'm saying? At least, Lomachenko only lost to Salido and Lopez, not just some bums. Who you lose to matters as much as who you beat, and Usyk is obviously a pound for pound talent.
     
  4. navigator

    navigator "Billy Graham? He's my man." Full Member

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    Taking the last of those examples you provided, following up and brute-forcing a hurt, Bambi-legged opponent who lacks the strength to successfully clinch you doesn't constitute in-fighting game, either. Joshua had been smart enough to catch Klitschko sleeping on the job right at the start of the round — he pulled the exact same trick again down the stretch, and it must've been an embarrassing experience for a fighter of Wlad's experience to be caught out twice in that manner by a still somewhat green pro — stepping in boldly and hurting him with a good straight punch launched from mid-range before charging in and trying to finish the job with a storm of blows. He landed some good shots while resisting Wlad's wounded attempts to grab on, but there was little in that barrage that one could cite as evidence of craft at close quarters.

    Without knowing which sequences you're specfically referring to in Joshua-Whyte and Joshua-Takam, I can't pass comment on those examples.
     
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  5. jm2729v

    jm2729v Active Member Full Member

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    Absolutely spot on this post. The heavyweight division is the most cowardly division of them all, there is no way Fury or Wilder would face Usyk in a similar situation, they'd rather drop the belt. Joshua has likely accumulated enough wealth to focus on his legacy, and in my opinion even in losing he has bolstered his legacy. As one sided as it was I wouldn't say it was a beat down, he fought honourably despite recognising early on that he wouldn't be good enough. He can come again.
     
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  6. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Joshua clubbed him with combinations in close range. He didn't exchange in the pocket because Klitschko himself is terrible in the inside but Joshua fought him on the inside regardless. No matter how you make it look navigator, Joshua beat Klitschko up on the inside at the beginning of round 5. It was not mid range, it was not long range. It was in the pocket.

    For the Whyte and Takam examples Joshua exchanges and unloads in the pocket in spots against both of them. Joshua is no Riddick Bowe and Fury is the better infighter but Joshua can fight in the pocket. Or at least he used to
     
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  7. navigator

    navigator "Billy Graham? He's my man." Full Member

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    Well, I was going to add that Wlad operates at an even slighter degree of capability on the inside (outside of reliance on the grab as a rhythm-breaker), so it's all relative. :lol:

    I edited my last post for greater accuracy, but any fighter can theoretically storm an opponent on ***** street and land shots at a short range. I maintain my point that it isn't really demonstrative of an understanding of trade in-fighting craft.


    I'll revisit the Whyte and Takam bouts at some point to see if I can find the spots you're thinking of.
     
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  8. Emerald Oracle

    Emerald Oracle Active Member Full Member

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    Absolutely spot on!
     
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  9. First Round KO

    First Round KO Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No way on this planet will AJ go down as one of the top 20 Heavyweights in history, his resume is full of beating great fighters who were well past their sell date.
     
  10. MyDentedHead

    MyDentedHead Active Member banned Full Member

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    i do not like AJ and always thought he was overated but i will give him credit his resume(filled with old dudes) is still better than Wilder and Furys resume and more exciting. You could probably debate Furys resume because he was the first to beat Wlad, beat steve cunningham and also do we know how good otto wallin is? it's possible if Otto wallin jacks Whyte all of a sudden Furys resume looks alot better.

    Having said that Fury and wilder both would probably beat him wilder is a toss up though
     
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  11. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Dot, dot, dot... Full Member

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    Resumes count for less than defining fights. If AJ retired tomorrow, people would reference some of the men he beat as good wins but they would conclude 'Yeah, but he was schooled by Usyk'. Likewise, if AJ next fought Fury and won - that would be how he's remembered: 'He took Fury's '0''. And if he lost to Fury he'd be remembered as a fighter just short of the elite level. Two fights (one we just saw and another we hope to see).

    And it shouldn't be any other way. Beating Parker, a fat man (who previously beat him), a well-past-his-best legend and a bunch of ageing contenders are never going to be the decisive factors in assessing his career even if that list of opponents is better than his rivals'.

    And as for fighting the best, well yeah, he just fought Usyk who is right up there with the best. But he lost to him. Defining fights...
     
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  12. navigator

    navigator "Billy Graham? He's my man." Full Member

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    Also bear in mind, also, Florez (@MarkusFlorez99);

    Our threadstarter is speaking about "inside game" in a trade sense, i.e. a facet of Joshua's fight game on which he could methodically and strategically call. Come a certain point in yesterday evening's bout, Joshua might have wanted to switch tactics and try to benefit from imposing himself on Usyk as Chisora did in his bout with the Ukrainian (albeit to an ultimately limited degree of success), but he doesn't have that kind of know-how in his bag of tricks. And Chisora is a ways off the highest level of in-fighting technician himself, though I would describe him as much more of a trade in-fighter than Joshua.
     
  13. Safin

    Safin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Which great fighters has he beaten except Klitschko, who had already been stopped by several mediocre opponents and then outboxed by Fury? Even he is overrated. He's very good, but he's not the legend he's cracked out to be by beating the likes of Mormeck, Leapai, Pianeta, Brock, Chagaev, Thompson and co.

    The rest of the men he has beaten have been complete puddings.
     
  14. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    My point still stands. Joshua traded with Whyte and Takam on the inside so yeah saying he has no inside game is false. Is it good inside game ? No really but he can still swap hands in the pocket.
     
  15. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Dot, dot, dot... Full Member

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    Usyk wouldn't let him set his feet to land power shots. Joshua needs to set his feet and THEN let his power shots go. The very best punchers do all this in one fluid movement, with the feet setting fractionally before the punch lands. AJ can't do that. If you keep making him reset you take away his power. Usyk was brilliant at doing this...