If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

If Ali fights through to 69-70 he is significantly better than 71 post layoff, Joe is possibly a little greener. Being champ seems to give something mentally to the holder. Joe is always tough for Ali but unless he wins the first fight he doesnt beat Ali. Ali is just that bit sharper, bit more stamina without the layoff.

Joe took a lot out of Ali in FOTC but Joe himself was never quite the same afterwards either.

One more thing to consider; Joe himself has said that he wanted that fight so bad because Alis shadow hung over his lack of respect as champ at the time, would that same motivation and belief have been there as a challenger?

 

If Ali had not been stripped, I think he would of gone to retire in 68 anyway, and Frazier would of won the Heavyweight Championship of the World. But his reign would of always been tainted by the fact he had not fought Ali.

 

You can be sure of one thing.

If Ali had beaten him then nobody would be talking about him today.

 

Ali came back a stronger man but Frazier as fit as he was for A/F 1 would have beaten Ali regardless, styles make fights, shame Frazier could not mantain the condition once he became a Big Star,Singer,and Party man, you can not burn the candle at both ends. Ali put his opponents in the spotlight but Frazier rose to the top by being a talented swarmer with a great left hook(ALI's Kryptonite) even a mediocre club fighter like Chuck Wepner was built up because he fought Ali, but I seen Chuck fight and it was horrible, he would not get in the top 50 today. Ali was great but the era was no better than any other IMO

 

What would a 1967 Ali do to Bonavena? Ellis whooped him and he wasn't in Ali's class in the 60s. a 1970 Ali took more punches from Bonavena that most of his fights from 64-67 put together. That's gotta tell you something about the lay-off. But maybe not

 

One question, in his lay-off, was Ali still in the gym regular, like sparring, working out, bag work etc at least 2-3 times a week? Or did he just **** around with politics and hit the gym maybe twice a month?

 

Ali was touring the country and doing lectures. He even did a play. He was outta condition for the Rocky computer thing. Even Cus mentioned he was in bad fighting shape for that Cassius Clay doc. He would've been training when he had the time but he definitely wasn't in proper professional boxing training - he had to make a living in other ways. He retired from the sport and didn't think he was going to return to the ring. I don't know how much he sparred? That's an interesting question which i would like to find out more. Angelo Dundee or Jimmy Ellis would know. Anyone know how to contact them?

 

Prime Frazier ????

 

If they fought in '68, Ali would have probably beaten him by a close but definite decision. The fight would have gained enough notoriety for a rematch around 1970, and Ali, now having a psychological advantage would have beaten him again by a wider decision. Ali was still feeling the effects of that layoff. His legs were just not there and he was much more hittable. In addition he was still feeling effects from his last fight with Bonavena, who gave him a tremendous body beating. Three months just wasn't enough to heal from that fight, and that made him run out of gas quicker which also made him more hittable.

 

I don't think that they would have fought untill about 1970.

 

Yes. Ali would have taken him lightly and lost at least one of their fights.

 

Ali was impressive against Quarry, and the Bonavena fight was tough, but he closed it out very well. Back-to-back fights with two of the best contenders alive certainly qualifies as a respectable warm-up for a championship match. Ali may not have been in peak form, but he wasn't far removed when Frazier beat him.

I disagree. Assuming Frazier has lost a title shot at Ali in the late '60s(which I am not convinced he would have) before Ali drops the championship to Norton in the early '70s, Frazier will still be pressing at the absolute front of the pack of contenders for another shot- he was extremely dominant against Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, etc., and would undoubtedly be either the #1 contender or #2(behind Ali) at this time(presumably somewhere from '70 to '72). There is not a half-bad chance that, being so eminently deserving and dominant against the field, Frazier gets a shot at Norton shortly after Norton claims the championship and knocks him out.

Not necessarily at all. Aside from wins over fringe contenders Peralta and Chuvalo, Foreman did almost nothing but swat around clubfighters prior to his title shot in '73- nearly half of his 37 fights prior to Frazier were against opponents with losing records. Foreman hadn't really created any overly powerful push to get himself into a title eliminator. Frazier could quite possibly have gotten a rematch with Ali without any need to fight Foreman on the way, and would then have still a third shot at the title with a solid chance at winning.

I also think you're wrong in your presumption that Frazier would have fought Ali for the title in '67 if not for the exile. In real life, Frazier was still having stay-busy fights against guys like Scrap Iron Johnson and Marion Connor between serious opponents- it wasn't until '68 that he fought for a belt and started consistently taking on top opponents. I think that is more likely how things would go; Frazier rises through the rankings in '67, and gets a shot at Ali in '68 or '69, when he is starting to absolutely peak out.

So, to sum that all up, I think:
1. There is a good chance Frazier beats Ali in the late '60s and claims the championship.
2. If Frazier loses to Ali in the aforementioned fight, there is a good chance that when Ali is eventually upset somewhere in the late '60s to early '70s, Frazier defeats whoever took the title from Ali(possibly Norton).
3. If Frazier doesn't get the shot at Ali's conqueror and instead Ali regains the title in a rematch, there is a good chance that Frazier takes the title from Ali in a rematch somewhere in '70-73.

Thus, I think there are at least three junctures where Frazier would have a very strong chance at claiming the championship in this hypothetical timeline, and that the odds are he would win the title at at least one of them.

 

if frazier might of lost the first fight the 2nd would be different frazier was so hard to beat it's unreal thats why it was so damn scary seeing foreman taking apart the smaller lighter weaker older shot frazier

 

Don't see it happening.Frazier would've had to have beaten another fighter to get that world title.Ali was not the one.

 

Ali was not God. He would have lost one to Fraizer. I think they face each other in 69-71 for the first time and I give Joe a good chance in winning in that time frame.