If Ali had never been alllowed to box again...

Most of his key wins come after that point, as does a sizable chunk of his volume and longevity argument.

I would certainly have to drop him a few spaces down the list in that scenario.

 

Has to diminish surely....most of what people remember is after not before. Some of his big nights that helped build his international love and legacy like the Rumble & the Thriller etc all came after.

 

Beat Liston twice (you figure out Sonny's real age), an overmatched Patterson, The Octopus Terrell who claimed a thumb-in-the eye foul, a gut-shot Cleveland Williams, Cooper #2, and an old Zora Folley. But as Joe Frazier once said: "You can only fight the fighters of your era..... that are available".

 

Yet many still consider his finest career performance and the fight that showcased him in his prime, the win against Cleveland Williams.

 

His legacy along with frazier, norton, shavers and chuvalo would all decrease.

Foreman on the other hand would have went on to be undefeated.

 

Frazier becomes a near ATG without Ali and Foreman after stopping Frazier becomes the greatest with no Ali to beat him he develops and matures into a better fighter until Holmes comes around.....he beats Holmes but Larry Holmes becomes the heir to the throne post Foreman.....it is my opinion that a more developed Foreman with his youthful athleticism and more relaxed does not lose to Young and beats the younger Holmes

And Ali? becomes the great coulda, woulda, shoulda but nothing close to what he became he does not make the top ATG heavyweights list...just the guy who had beaten Liston and MAYBE the one who could have beat Foreman

 

1) Ali wouldn´t be a Top10
2) H2H, nobody would see an durable, iron chinned fellow. A Fighter who was hard to hit and beat a past prime Liston. Nobody would suggest him a favourite vs Tyson, Louis or Lewis.
3) Frazier will be ranked lower (no signature win)
4) There was probably a Foreman - Holmes bout
5) Foremans win over Frazier is rated lower since Frazier was not that special, but Foreman has the chance to get even higher when he beats Holmes.
6) Holmes beats Foreman and might become #2 after Louis.
7) Foreman never retires, we might have seen an incredible Tyson-Foreman bout 86-88

 

Ali thought something similar too.

 

He wouldn't make any ATG lists and people would laugh at the notion that he could ever beat Marciano. There's be some folks that would swear that he'd had the talent and commitment to become something truly special, and we'd laugh at them too. Liston's reputation would also take a knock because "he lost to that kid, whatsisname, Casey Ceramics or something". Thanks to Cooper his chin would be written off as toilet paper and we'd never see him eat bombs from the greats and remain in the fight.

Conversely, pre-exile Ali goes up in our estimation because of what he did post exile. His achievements post exile confirm how special he actually was pre-exile.

 

He would likely be seen as a hype job that beat an 80 year old Liston and middleweight Patterson.

He certainly wouldn't be in any top 10 lists, I doubt it. He didn't do enough pre-exile to be considered an ATG.

Post-exile is what cemented his legacy. Every fighter cements their position in different ways.

IMO, people would say Foreman would KO Ali, Frazier would KO him and Holmes would outclass him.

 

Maybe Holmes wouldn’t have become the fighter he was without Ali being there in the 70s?All those years of sparring with Ali and eventually beating up Ali in sparring or so Holmes claimed,made him believe he could be a champion and helped refined and develop his skills.

 

Probably, but you still would have Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle as threats, even in the absence of Ali.

 

I do. Shao Khan was a judge he would have yelled "Flawless Victory" after that fight. Most beautiful 5 minutes of boxing ever to happen.

 

People say a lot of crazy ****. He wasn't in there with a live body. He introduced the Ali shuffle that night but other than that? He just didn't carry him.