If Ali had n't have got his hernia prior to liston rematch.

Doesn't matter how well Sonny trained, or how super motivated and angry he was. He'd still have to somehow beat an opponent he was barely able to hit at all. This is still a case of molasses versus mercury. Ali displayed no issues whatsoever in round 15 from Chuvalo's body attack when they squared off. Muhammad was flying around the ring in Lewiston. Does Liston somehow wear down a stylist who was really geared towards distance boxing? Can Sonny manage to jab his way to a decision win?

:huhHow? He never had Frazier's hand speed, stamina, or relentlessly persistent aggression. He boxed his way to a win over a smaller Machen. Ali's combination of height, reach, mobility, hand speed and elusiveness make him a different kettle of fish from Eddie.

It's hard to beat somebody you can hardly hit, and by this time, actually hitting Muhammad was hardly worth the effort. His punch resistance had taken a quantum leap forward since Cooper I and Doug Jones. Beyond that, he displayed fine clinching and survival skills when Jones did stun him early.

Assuming Liston doesn't quit out of frustration, Boston would have been a pretty lopsided decision win for Ali, along the lines of his shellacking of Sonny's fine jabbing spar mate and exhibition partner Terrell. Liston simply didn't have the speed to compete against a faster, taller and much more mobile boxer who would not gas, and compete to win rather than play a game of survival as Machen is supposed to have done.

 

What's Interesting is that the first Liston-Ali fight,the decision was Liston-Ali-Draw.

 

Throughout most of his career Liston was happy to adopt the role of Destructive beast, a monster of fistic mayhem, A few towels padding up his ring gown did no harm at all, first time around Liston was Pyscologically Ambushed by clay, The Skinny Kid who barely got by Doug Jones and Dropped by a Bald Brit Henry Cooper,,,,would be a quick Knock-over Job, But he didnt turn up...Liston so used to Looking into opponents eyes, often downwards..his sullen expression drawing their resolve...loosening the buckles holding their composure together..found himself looking up...up to someone who wasnt quaking in their boots...but actually bursting to put on his quickstep ballet of batteration, and after a few rounds the percieved Gentle Gazelle turned into a malevolent Mongoose...with the accompanying bombast and bravado it was a mentally scaring event to a one level bullying behemoth.....

AS to a quicker rematch...Clay would probably do what he did in the actual rematch, and what he did with Cleve Williams, for the first minute ,,Nothing...But Dance...the Dance of the Easy-rider, the sign post to domination.. They were headed in differant physical directions, Mentally they may already have arrived, the Liston nightmare was no dream, Clay was Bigger Faster More Confident....A big dose of Deja'Vue decends on Liston whenever Clay decides to Twin his flashing fists to his flashing feet, Listons resolve would not falter from big single blasts, but a water torture style administration of pain and frustration,,,Liston would be forced to ask who he was actually taking this pain punctuated humiliation for, His Cornermen who assured him he would deal with the kid with ease this time ? the absent Fans who never welcomed him home when he won the title, ? the authorities who hounded him or the civil dignatories who were not particularly civil ? His "Connections" to whom he was no more than an acquintence of convenience.... ? The Evaporation of Will would follow, Come on Geraldine..we got the money to hell with em....Lets go Home...

 

Wow. Great stuff.

And I agree.

Always excuses with Liston. I have always admired his technical prowess and dynamite power, but never his mentality as a champion.

He surrendered his title on his stool after taking less-than-murderous punishment and he was totally disheartened by a 6-month rematch delay. Boo-hoo! A true champion would have done the work again--ten times over--to get his title back.

But you're absolutely right. Liston, unlike the greatest champions, really had no one to fight for.

Sad, as is Liston's whole story.

 

Totally agreed. An excellent poster, sometimes overlooked due to relatively low output, but memorable commentary when choosing to contribute. I always enjoy AREA 53's thoughtful participation here.

Right. Only Willard had pulled the French exit in defense of the HW Title prior to this, only after a murderous hammering. Danny Williams had a hideously separated right shoulder when he came back to knock out Mark Potter, obviously far more severe than the separation Liston claimed for his left in Miami Beach, and no, Sonny didn't take much aside from being briefly buckled and stunned back to a neutral corner at the outset of round three. (That action is a factor in convincing me that the knockdown in Lewiston was legitimate though. In Maine, Liston went down as a result of being hit, something clear when looking at the back of his head in slow motion whiplash sharply on impact, with his lead foot off the ground to reposition himself at that instant.)

I was thinking of how meekly Liston surrendered the greatest prize in sports while watching Mattioli desperately battling back from a shattered right arm sustained in an opening round knockdown against Hope, a gallantly futile bid to defend the WBC LMW Title. ( issBoxWRECK makes no mention of this early knockdown or the resulting injury, let alone Rocky's excruciatingly painful and determined effort to come back from it.)

Braddock went out on his sword and shield against Louis when Joe Gould urged Jimmy to emulate Willard, only to have the Cinderella Man snarl back in his face, "If you do, I'll never speak to you again!" Liston could have at least made the pretense of displaying such guts in '64, but even mutual Liston/Frazier corner man Milt Bailey said on camera that the main difference between Sonny and Smoke was that, "Liston was a bully, while Frazier was a BULLDOG."

Even in death, his mortal remains are lonely. When Geraldine Clark Liston died at 80 in April 2005, she was buried, not by his side at Paradise Memorial Gardens in Las Vegas, but at St. Peter's Cemetery in St. Louis.

 

Prime / Duodenum - Thank you very much indeed, i think Mr Charles Liston is one of those fighters, that when one takes a step back, and views them as a person, and not just their performances inside the ring, Perhaps we, unshackled by the personal prejudices of those turbulent times, can afford him perhaps a bit more understanding, if not respect, For sure he will have done bad things, but he did seem to have rather a few strikes against him from day one, not to condone anything but more understand it, and its always very difficult to picture oneself in that situation reading about it, 60 years on, from the safe side of a chesterfield sofa in a safe middleclass residential area...drink in hand...

I remember reading about Listons Trip to the UK ( Jack Solomons Henry Coopers manager said he wouldnt let Henry be in the same town as Sonny...Never mind same ring !) and Liston throughly enjoyed the visit, he found it strange being surrounded by people apperrently genuinely happy to meet him, In particular Sonny enjoyed meeting young people, and could be relaxed and playful with children as he found that they had no agenda, sonny even revealed himself to be quite a wit on occassion, I think that there was definately more to him then the Thug label that was often pinned to him
- Sonny had a shield of mistrust, but on occassion it was lowered, i think there was definitely something more sensitive behind that armour.

Thanks Again Gentlemen Area 52

 

I'm not big on Liston as a title defender, but I admire how he made something of himself: from supposed scum to a world champion!

He and Mike Tyson are so uncannily entwined.

Every human being, even the greatest badass of them all, needs to be fueled by love.

We can only imagine how great Sonny Liston might have become had the public accepted him, when, after crushing Floyd Patterson, he resolved to be the people's champion, a gentle giant worthy of the title. But he was spurned. All anyone could see was what was considered his intimidating physicality. No one cared to look under the surface for any of the good. Liston was no angel, but, as a man who had whipped himself into the physical and mental shape of a world-class athlete, he was clearly much more than just someone to be locked up forever. But no one cared and, eventually, he stopped caring as well.

So reminds me of young Tyson, mildly pointing out there was no Mom to show his clippings to. We can only imagine the heights of greatness Mike Tyson could have reached had he continued to be blessed with a Cus in his life.

It is no coincidence that our greatest champions, Ali and Louis, always enjoyed love and appreciation to spare. They had something to fight for.

Anyone who treats children like Liston and Tyson did in the videos we have all seen, must have a beautiful angle inside.

When I look into Liston's sad eyes, I am reminded of my alcoholic, epileptic uncle--who everyone avoided--lonely, alone in his dark room. I was but a young teen but I pitied him and sought his company, finding him to be a nice man on the inside, not a monster to be feared.

Thanks for reminding me of these things and why, though Liston should never be considered among the greatest champions, he did all right. :good

 

Thanks, friend Duo, for your, as always, informed perspective...and tongue-in-cheek humor! :cheers

 

Every report that surfaced as they prepared for the rescheduled second go had Sonny unable to get into any kind of a groove. Sparring partners were battering him, he stumbled trying to jump rope, his entire coordination was thrown hilter when the bout was postponed. He had one last big effort in him and sadly it went to waste. When you consider that after six rounds you had an even bout in the first match it would have been a keenly watched fight had it come off.

 

Get real. Liston trained harder for the rematch than he ever did in his life. Had it taken place as scheduled, I'm sure he would have had a great chance, and that's despite being roughly 40 years old.

 

Then Liston wins by a KNOCKOUT and is considered the goat of the Heavies.