If Ali hadn't been banned

Peak Frazier was '68 (Mathis) to '71 (Ali) which is 8 fights.

Peak Ali was '65 (Patterson) to '67 (Folley) also 8 fights.
Ali might have improved further in '68 & '69 without his unjust exile, but that was the spectacular "Peak" he reached.

 

MM Joe,

That was Bill Faversham's list,,,,,,,,,
Kind of a semi-world tour for 1968.

Bob Cleroux in Canada for early 69' (A natural)
Jerry Quarry in California for late-spring 69' (A natural)
Floyd Patterson in New York for late-69 (A natural)

Madison Square Garden wanted this fight for March 1970.
They were putting up the bucks.

Joe Fraziers 'star' had not completely risen yet.

 

Ali and Dundee would have had to be mindful that Muhammad did not regress from lack of competition, so durable challengers who could extend him without seriously jeopardizing the title would be desirable opponents. He was already slated to defend against Bonavena in Tokyo on May 24, 1967. I think this would have been likely to go the distance. He probably also goes the route with the rugged Cleroux in Montreal. Frazier was not ready for Ali until after his rematch with Bonavena in December 1968. Perhaps Ali and his camp would have staged a preemptive strike on a still improving Frazier to set Joe back a little farther. Tall southpaw Ali sparring partner and stablemate Al Jones snagged a pair of quality wins over Cleveland Williams and Henry Clark, which could have set the stage for an intriguing promotion. Clark himself was the first heavyweight contender known to idolize Ali, and would have been the first challenger younger than Muhammad himself, if Henry's wins over Machen and Martin propelled him directly into a championship match instead of a rebounding Liston.

Maybe Ali-Chuvalo II in Louisville for a championship homecoming, as that was the setting for George raking DeJohn over the ropes in late 1963, inspiring his "Washerwoman" nickname.

Jerry Quarry does get to Ali in 1968 or 1969, but even a peak JQ in the best of form doesn't have the qualities necessary to compete with Mythical Ali. (Yes, "Mythical Ali" is a distinct entity, like "Toledo Dempsey," "Montreal Duran," and "FOTC Frazier.")

In the late 1960s, Cooper rebounded from the knockout loss to Patterson with possibly the best streak of his career. As BBBofC, Commonwealth and EBU triple champion, maybe he gets a third go with Ali to close out his career before the end with Bugner.

No question though that Mythical Ali's only serious challenger before the rise of Norton and Foreman is Frazier. I suspect he does get a second shot after a failed first try within the time frame Muhammad was exiled. (I say "failed first try" because I don't see Joe having to wait in line for a first shot until 1969. I think he gets to Ali for the first time in late 1967 or early 1968, too soon to be able to succeed.) Frazier and Durham were referring to him as "Clay" in filmed interviews even before Ali's exile, providing the requisite promotional acrimony. (Muhammad complained about the difficulty in building up "sweet old man" Folley, as the gentlemanly Zora did call him by his Muslim name and expressed gratitude for his long overdue title shot. )

 

Duo,

The Country of Iceland was offering up some amazing $$$ for Ali to come and defend his title their.
Something crazy like $2,500,000 in the summer of 1968.
And against anybody he wanted.

Don't think Main Bouts, Inc. would turn that down.

 

He should never have asked for a live stream. :verysad

 

Duran

 

T-N-T,,,

Sonny Liston was in 'no-mans' land in the beginning of 1969.
Madison Square Garden wanted to promote Joe Frazier,,,, but
Edward Dooley would not grant Sonny Liston a boxing licenses in New York.

Listons only choice was the WBA Championship, versus Jimmy Ellis.
But there wre no promoters offering any decent money up.
And no Casualty Companies would put up a 'bond' with Sonny Liston involved in a heavyweight title fight.

I don't think Sonny Liston ever realized 'what a mess' he made for himself.

 

If he beats Frazier and Norton first time round, then he starts to suffer from Joe Louis syndrome. The wins are automaticaly devalued because nobody in that era has been able to launch a sucesfull asult on the title. Frazier and Norton are simply the Billy Conn and Tommy Farr of their era.

In practice I suspect that he would have lost to either Frazier or Norton. There would always have been stylistic issues and he would probably have underestimated the threat posed by Norton.

Although he would have got more wins in his prime, I think that he would probably have declined a little earlier due to the greater ringwear.

 

Perhaps. But on the other hand I don't think he'd have quite the wars he did have with especially Frazier. If he didn't have FOTC and Manilla he may well have kept up longer. He retires in 1976 and tries an usuccesful comeback against Holmes in 1978. Perhaps another one or two attempts against contenders before he hangs up his gloves.

Considering he somehow managed ten title defences even in his second reign, I'd say it's a fair bet that he'd at least rack up 20 defenses, probably more. If I had to put money on who'd end his reign, I'd say Norton. He takes back the title in an immediate rematch and reign for another couple of years (winning some controversial decisions on the way).

Verdict

Ali fans: "He absolutely dominated a good, but perhaps not great, era and would have dominated any other era. Frazier, Foreman and perhaps even Quarry would have been champs in most other eras."

Ali detractors: "He dominated a very weak era, fought mostly cans, won the title through fixed fights and won it back because of benevolent/corrupt judges. Should at the very least have lost it to Young in 1975. He probably was lucky to win the first fight against Frazier as well."

 

IMO boxing and indeed Ali would of been worse off.

I think there would of been a real chance that Ali would of been assassinated.

But even if that did not happen, Ali would of retired early IMO, say around 68-69, and politics would of been his life.

I do not see him comeback until the mid 70s and what would of been a very ill fated decision and a decisive defeat to Foreman.

If he had avoided the assassins bullet, his health would of been less of an issue.

But he would never of got to Demigod status; and I think maybe even without that chill out period, where he put his point of view across so well concerning Vietnam, changing many peoples opinion of him around, he would of gone done as one of most hated athletes in Western Sports history.

 

Clearly, he would finally be cornered by the rejuvenated Eddie Machen. With nowhere to go, Ali would vacate the title, and retire in shame.

 

Don't forget 1966/1967.
It's not like the Top 10 guys were scaring anybody.
Remember, they were dragging out names like Kent Green and Tony Madigan.

Even the 'farce' with Wilt Chamberlin, and the 'World's Greatest Athlete' Jim Brown.

 

:yep

 

Didn't Ali say, after the Cleveland Williams fight;

'No More One-Legged Guys',,,,,,,,from now on 'One armed guys only'

 

Could Joe Louis have benefited if one of his oponents had breifly taken the title off him paradoxicaly?

I am not trying to argue that there was a hidden Frazier or Foreman in that era, because nobody did beat him.

Interesting what if though.