If Ali retires after Manilla, is he still considered #1 all time?

If I remember correctly, he had just gotten done crying at the post-fight interview.

He loved Ali, and was completely baffled as to what was apparently vicious verbal abuse hurled at him during the fight. Apparently Ali was pulling out all the stops to psych him out. All it did was enrage him.

If you watch the fight, you can see where he pulled back. He could have taken him out during points in the last three rounds. Watch that last round...he wasn't going all out. Watch the fight with Leon: that's Holmes going all out. Ali didn't get that.

 

Great Post.

 

Yeah, absolutely right Rules. Several times when Ali went back to the ropes, Larry stood off him. That fight really was an awful spectacle. I've never watched it back. Just saw it on TV at the time.

 

The real criminals were Dundee, Herbert Muhammad, and Bundini Brown. Ali was about as dangerous to Holmes as a man nailed to a cross.
Dundee is the most overrated trainer, btw when not working with Ali, Leonard, or Foreman he had a habit of going crazy and screaming profanity in the corner. Just watch him in Tillis corner vs Weaver as one example. SRL said one time that Dundee called assistant trainer Pepe Correa the N word and Correa punched him. Leonard told Correa not to hit Angelo because he was really old by then.

 

Wow thats interesting allways tought he was overrated.

I bet it was huge hit to Angelos ego when he got punched

 

SRL said that Correa claimed that was the reason but that Dundee denied it.

 

Muhammed Ali competed in an era where PED’s were available and nobody was drug tested. Steroid testing didnt even come around until the 80’s, it was primitive and boxing didnt test for roids either.

 

You mean and not have those scintillating fights with Trevor Berbick, Larry Holmes, Alfredo Evangelista, Jean Pierre Coopman, Jimmy Young and Leon Spinks on his record?

And instead retire as undisputed heavyweight champion with a record of 49-2, finishing out the last year of his career stopping George Foreman, Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier, and having beaten every man he'd ever faced?

Yes, I think he'd still be remembered as the best heavyweight. He'd probably have a STRONGER grasp on that title, actually. His record from 1976 to 1981 didn't do him any favors.

 

I have no idea how his record from 1976 to 1981 "helped" his career at all. Honestly.

Would you rather conclude the last 12 months of your career stopping Foreman, Lyle and Frazier ... and retiring as undisputed champ ... or retire to the sound of a cowbell (because a ring bell couldn't be found) in a dilapidated baseball field in the Bahamas losing to Trevor Berbick (your third loss in your last four fights)?

Would it have helped Marciano's standing all time if he'd continued on after the Moore fight, won a couple controversial decisions, lost his title to someone like Olympic gold medalist Pete Rademacher in 1957, regained the belt from Rademacher, got brutalized by Patterson and quit on his stool after 10, before finally called it quits after getting outpointed in the Bahamas by some fringe top 10 contender like Alejandro Lavorante in 1960 or 1961?

Because that's what basically happened to Ali.

I think Ali could've skipped over that part and done fine. The fact that he's still rated so highly considering that's how his career ended shows how strong the rest of his career was.

 

Ferdie Pacheco left the team after Shavers.

 

Exactly. Ali thought Larry Holmes was another Jimmy Ellis, who never developed an identity of his own and never really thought he was better than his boss. And Larry Holmes may have become Jimmy Ellis if he'd remained in Ali's camp. But Holmes knew he didn't want to be another Jimmy Ellis, and left.

I always thought this photo said a lot. You've got all these former champs standing around. They all have great pride. And Ellis is wearing his Muhammad Ali camp shirt. Like they wouldn't let him in if he didn't say he was part of Ali's team.

https://i.etsystatic.com/13037325/r/il/ce30a4/1821815694/il_1588xN.1821815694_88sx.jpg

 

Don't know if we're ever going to get wise to when steroids came into boxing.

I'm pretty sure Ali didn't start with it in the 70's, because he never developed a more muscular physique or looked physically better in any way. But it's very hard to totally rule out that he started with it in the early 60's. He did after all go to the Rome Olympics where the whole American weight lifting team were up to their eyeballs in steroids. The fact that Ellis, Ali's sparring partner/stable mate, went from a MW to a HW within less than a year can also seem a bit suspicious.

 

Lyle was before Manila. Young wasn't a good win. It's a blemish he could do without. His legacy might be a little better had he retired after Manila

 

Great pic, Dubblechin! When was it taken?

I agree that Ali's legacy would be enhanced had he retired after Manila. 'Course he likely wouldn't have appeared in a Billy Joel song.

 

I believe it was before the third Norton fight.