If B-HOP had done this...

Exactly...and agreed. I didnt read anything really beyond the quoted thing originally. Jumped the gun a bit....

:thumbsup

As for who is telling the truth. I was actually going to edit my post after and add "(depending on who you believe )" but got lazy.

:good

 

If Hopkins beat Jones (still prime) in a rematch at 168 in 1998, got the decision against Taylor, beat Calzaghe at 168 (while being 40+ years old), and then moved up and beat someone like Ibragimov or Chagaev? :admin

****.. asking whether he would be top 10-20 ATG isn't even a real question. If he accomplished all that, even at an old age, he would have an argument to being the greatest boxer of all time. P4P #1. I'm not even nuthugging or joking.. how can people even argue that he would be out of the top 10? Beating a prime Jones at 168, a pretty Prime Calzaghe, and a HW champ, while suffering only 1 loss in his career to a top 25 ATG in Jones who he would later avenge would be an unbelievable achievement and easily make him top 1-3 ATG P4P.

 

But he didnt do any of them things, because he was simply not good enough/ He is undoubtedly top 60 ATG, but this is like saying, what if Butterbean never lost at heavyweight, got a shot at Lewis, KO'ed him then went on to unify for 10 years. It never happened, so why say it?

Anyway, he will NEVER surpass Monzon

 

Top 60?

Never surpass Monzon?

Okay bro...to each him own I guess.....:huh

But, ummmm, care to explain that?

 

The pro-debut loss is irrelevant and should have no real impact on Hopkins' legacy. If he'd won a rematch against Jones, that would vault him upwards in a big way. Even if he did so now, it would be a boost. Hopkins already did arguably beat Taylor in their fights, but if he'd beaten him decisively and never lost the middleweight title in the ring, he would probably be closing in on my #1 all-time middleweight position at this point.

As is, he's in my top 5, but not top 3 at middleweight, and probably somewhere in the lower top 50 pound-for-pound.

 

I'm sure if Monzon had lost in his first title try to Benvenuti, drew in his second (to, say, Denny Moyer) and lost his last two against Valdez, you'd find it pretty easy to rate Hopkins above him at 160. True?

 

True. I didn't rate him at 175 like I did at5 160/168 myself.

 

dude, what a shitty post. Noone is saying he did it, or that it would have happened if he had tried.

I don't see why it bothers you so much that ppl are saying what if

 

Even after losing a pro debut at 175 pounds and to RJJ by 116-112 scorecards, twice to Taylor ( SD and 115-113 UD scores), having one draw against Mercado in Equador and one no-contest against Allen, nobody does time, comes out of jail and as a late-starter, makes 20 successful middleweight title defenses for 10 years and 8 months, unifies the IBF title with the WBC's and with the WBA's and with the WBO's and wins a light-heavyweight title beyond the 40 year old age barrier... Bernard is the American Dream and I am afraid to say quite frankly that he the best middleweight of all times after Sugar Ray and in front of Hagler and Monzon.

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Perfect Execution...

 

IMO, Bernard could be considered top 20 ATG right now. He is almost undeniably one of the smartest, if not THE smartest fighter to be in the game. Watching his fights, he's the only guy in modern times you can almost SEE thinking while he's fighting. He sets trap after trap after trap, it's amazing. Every fight, he starts landing clean shot after clean shot by the 4th-5th round.

 

Also, he's beaten:

Trinidad
De La Hoya
Wright
Tarver
Eastman
Joppy
Allen
Mercado
Holmes
Echols
and a number of others.

 

Are you debating who was better Benvenuti (a great fighter btw...) or Roy Jones Jr.?

Fact is, Bernard lost a competative (but clear) fight to one of the 25-30 best fighters of all time...and would have been an entirely different fight later on in their careers (which I eluded to what I feel would happen and why I feel it.).

Not to mention both fighters were green in that fight (Yes Hop was 28, but as stated, basically a 24 year old fight with his lost years in jail).

So that correlation doesnt hold weight.

The Moyer thing? You realize Moyer was on his last leg when they fought. A very good fighter in his time...but when he fought Monzon, he already had 22 losses and finished his career from then going 15-12. And you mention if he had drew with Moyer...yet fail to realize Hopkins has 1 draw....Monzon has 9. Again, not a good comparison.

We could debate these two all day. I dont like doing things like this with fighters like Monzon (whom I have the utmost respect for as a fighter and his resume).

Fact is, resume wise, its very close. You could make a case for Carlos, but barely....you could make a case for Hopkins, but barely.

And seeing as how Hopkins broke Monzon's streak.....seeing as how he is a two division (and in all likelyhood will go for a third division) champ....seeing as how he did it at such a high level, for such a long time (and counting)....accomplishment wise, its heavily in favor of Hopkins.

Head to head....I cant think of a scenario where a prime Monzon (who was an animal...and a true great) beats Hopkins. His entire style of fighting is what Hopkins style was made to beat. I love Carlos....again, one of the greatest ever....but vs Prime Bernard, he loses.

(and I realize that isnt going to be a popular statement, but what can ya do)

These are the reasons why I have Hopkins ahead of him. And there are plenty more reasons that I would touch upon if I had time (gotta leave for work in like 5 mins.... ).

And like I said, if he continues to beat great fighters like he has been targetting (Calzaghe is probably next, then either retirement or HW title shot....with an outside chance of Hop/Jones...) he will be undoubtedly the best MW ever, and undoubtedly top 15 ever.

There will be no arguement.

 

What has what he achieves from now got to do with his ranking at 160 anyway? His record at middleweight title fights is something like 20-3-1, Monzon's is 15-0. No contest there for me. A few draws early on in a career in a country where they were thrown around like confetti is not really an issue (just like Hopkins' early loss wasn't). The issue is that it took him three attempts to win the crown. He may not have had that many opportunities in other eras.

 

Record number of defenses (beating Monzon), over a decade undefeated, unified the division, I could keep going.

Selective use of numbers. At least if you are going to attempt to discredit him, be honest about how you use them.

So he lost to Jones in his first title defense when both fighters were green. Understood.

Then he went on to win 20 straight with a HOMETOWN draw first (another thing you declined to mention...more on that in a second). Only to lose his last two in fights that are still debated today (and that MOST people feel he won....I myself scored the first for Bernard, the second a draw...but it couldve went either way.).

Of course not when you falsely bring facts into it. Again, be subjective.

But what about Hopkins draw that you keep mentioning? Have you ever seen the fight? Do you realize that the fight was in Ecuador? Do you realize Mercado is Ecuadorian? Do you realize that fight should have went to Bernard....hense one of the main reasons for the immediate rematch on US soil?

You have never seen the fight and attempted to feign knowledge via boxrec. Nice try!

:good

So you call upon Monzon's 9....COUNT EM!!!....9 hometown draws (some in his favor actually...and this is coming from an admitted Monzon fan) and you make excuses....same thing happens to Bernard and you discredit him for it.

:huh

Your bias is showing bro....and its ugly.

Yes. One loss early in his career to one of the greatest fighters alive in a competative (tho clear win for Jones) fight. One hometown draw in another country prompting an immediate rematch of THE VACANT TITLE. And then destruction of Mercado in the rematch.

And in other eras he wouldnt have? Go look at some of Monzon's defenses....Roy Dale career record at the point of the fight = 19-12-0...Moyer was on a fast decline (look at the rest of his career) and had 22 losses at this point....I could go on and on but we will just use those two to prove my point.

Together they had 34 losses at the times of their title shots....but Bernard wouldnt have with 2 and a bs draw.

You need to take the blinders off bro....:verysad

 

But he wouldn't have fought the likes of Mercado in another era, as there would be eight fighters fighting for a vacant title...he was deemed very lucky to draw anyway. Maybe the fact that it was a King/Lewis show helped him out a lot.