If BJ is a BJJ black belt, why does he not submit people off his back?

Yup, I am sure if you compred the ratio between basic level submissions and mid-high level submissions, the statistics would agree with me. Remember, the gogaplata was only ever successfully attempted twice int eh entire history of pride. Pride started in 1997 and its now 2010. For 13 years how many bjj blackbelts do you think went into pride? 50? 100? and only 2 gogaplata submissions have ever been successful. That right there speaks volumes.

 

submissions like the gogoplata are dificult to pull off, so is that what your saying that if a sub is hard to finish than MMA fighters will stop using it?

 

Not just submissions, transitions and sweeps as well. I am not saying they're not using them because it is hard to finish, I am saying they're not using them because they don't work against people that ahve half a clue of what theyre donig. Any low level bjj player or a wrestler with a strong base > mid-high level bjj.

 

so how then do you account for highlevel fighters like fedor and sonnen being submitted (how about gomi,randy couture,matt hughes, mark coleman, kevin randalman ect even high level submission artists like fedor, renzo gracie, sakuraba, yoshiro akiyama,jeremy horn, tales lateis,shogun rua ect)

the best muay thia fighters get ko'd, the best wrestlers get taken down, the best submission artist get submitted. it is just that much more difficult to do it.

even if it was nearly impossible to use bjj techniques on bjj masters MMA fighters can always used different techniques like stikes to open up a submission.

they showed fedors basic strategy here on the pride show on fsn. watch the vid and see(0:50 sec mark)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K0OJ6-aauo[/ame]



frank trigg explained, fedor lands punches on randelmans head to get him to realese the body lock he had on fedor- that was the first part. once randelman relesed the body lock to defend the strikes fedor immediatly grabs randelmans wrist to then secure the kimura.

you see, if you did defend one than the other will get you. randelman probably knew that he could not let go of fedor with his bodylock but those punches eventually would have seriously hurt him or caused the ref to stop the fight due to the undefended punishment he was taking.

fighting at a high level is like a chessgame you may see the threat but the law of two weaknesses can be too much to overcome

I took this off a chess website but it applies here as well. It is called the two weakness principle.

"A smartly conducted defense will usually be able to cover one weakness
without too much difficulty. So, if your opponent is condemned to
passivity, do not attempt to force the win at this one single point – play
widely! The correct strategy for the stronger side is to find, or create, a
second weakness in the enemy camp. By attacking this second
weakness, and then if necessary switching back to the first, we break
down, and finally destroy, the enemy's defense."

you cant have a perfect defense, eventually you will succumb to something.

and thats just one of many keys to victory, their is always a whole lot more.

 

The same way I did the last time someone brought up that same point. They were submitted with basic submissions. Fedor submission, basic sub. Hughes, basic sub, etc. etc. all they win by are basic submissions, basic level bjj.

What does this have to do with the point I was making?

what are you talking about here? where did I say it was impossible to use bjj techniques on bjj masters?

I know about the 2 weakness strat....so tell me what this has to do with the point I was making?

 

I got you now. Wasn't sure what you were trying to say in the beginning.

Yes. I'm a strong proponent of that thought.

I think Fedor is the prime example of how far basics can take you. Nothing fancy but what he does, he does exceptionally well. He said it himself on many occasions that he does not train anything fancy and rarely prepares anything specific for individuals. I think Crocop was one example where he had to train with Dutch strikers to prep for that left leg.

Even a sub that Fedor got caught I think everyone in the world and Fedor himself realizes that it was a very silly mistake to make.

I do believe he should at least get couple months in with BJJ masters to see their theory on some of the locks, if nothing but to know what to expect. Fedor has SLOPPY triangles, he doesn't like that submission and he doesn't even do it properly, which can be seen from his videos. That's one submission that Sambo doesn't really have. So he never really had a lot of practice defending against that in practice. Since, he trains with Sambo grapplers and not BJJ grapplers.


It's understandable why this is happening. Wrestling has plenty of fancy moves, but if you look at olympic level, it's ALL basics, but they're done perfectly.
BJJ with GI is a little bit different, and there's a lot of fancy moves that you can get caught in unexpectedly because the dynamics are different. So in that respect BJJ isn't really going to "evolve" into the basics. However BJJ for MMA strictly will be simple armlocks, leglocks, and chokes. Again, this isn't doesn't mean they're simple, it means thats what people will be perfecting. To perfect those moves with proper set ups or traps will take years of practice.
Again, I think Fedor is prime example of "basics" is all you need. His submissions consist of armbar, kimura, guillotine, and RNC that's IT. The problem for opponents is that he either sets them up really well with w/e else he's doing, or he just slaps those submissions on so fast the opponents fail to react.

 

Exactly this! :good

 

ok, you are saying mid level subs wont work, but they do.

shinya ayoki wins with them all the time.

listen man, you have already come to your own conclusions about this matter, and you want us to agree with you?

how about instead you agree with me?

you see, their is not point to this, but you have succeded in hijacking this thread.

so to disprove your point I guess we will have to wait and see someone submitt somene with a gogoplata?

I dont get where this discussion can go/what it can achieve.

 

You need a high level of skill at those "basic" moves though. Learning how to do them is not enough. You need high level training to be able to use them.

Anderson Silva would not have won that fight without being a pretty high level BJJ fighter off his back.

 

You're confusing LEARNING high-level moves w/ ACHIEVING a high level IN a discipline. Those are not the same thing.

So, just drilling a basic move to perfection is not enough to reach a high level. All drilling teaches you is form. It doesn't teach you setting it up, anticipating an opening, transitioning from it to something else or vice versa, recovering & adju$ting if you **** up the execution, etc. If you understand all those nuances, that's when you reach a high level in whatever discipline.

Anderson Silva locked in that triangle from a split second opening, adjusted it when it wasn't tight, kept it when Sonnen tried to position out of it, and transitioned to another submission while keeping the triangle choke locked. That's high-level BJJ using a basic move.

Also, learning high-level moves is not automatically mean you're at a high-level, but it's usually the case b/c high-level moves are either tricky, extremely risky, or are only available in unique circumstances, so it doesn't make sense to focus on until you've got a solid - very strong foundation.

 

I think what he is saying basically is the high level submissions are gone because mma has evolved past them and he mourns them. for all we witness from here on are the same played-out arm-bars, chokes, and triangles.

he wants to experience the epic, but its being replaced by the mundane.:|:|:|:|:|:|:|

I shed a tear for you brother!

I too am bored when I see someone get ko'd with the same left hook, the same old boring right upercut...ect

cant we just replace the jab with a van damne style double flying roundhouse split kick! it may be impractical, but it looks AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Some dude KOs another with a straight 1-2. Basic.

Wrestler shoots in for a double leg takedown and throws some ground and pound. Basic.

Matt Hughes beats Renzo by throwing simple low kicks the entire fight. Basic.

Just because people aren't scoring gogoplatas all the time doesn't mean their jujitsu isn't at a high level.

 

You did not just use three boxers and one mixed martial artist to prove your point did you? You have to know how ******ed that is to use a completely different sport to make your point.

You don't think high level wrestling is also far more complicated than most MMA wrestling? That high level boxing is usually far more complicated than boxing in mma? When you start opening up all variables it changes what you can do with the different disciplines.

 

Maybe replace the uppercut with the shoryuken...:think