If both Ali/Liston fights were fixed, how would it affect Sonny's and Ali's legacies?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Aug 7, 2022.

  1. billyb71

    billyb71 Member Full Member

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    Because he didn't have two loses to Ali. Liston didn't lose the second fight.

    In the first fight, Liston really had a bad shoulder. He tried unsuccessfully to get the fight postponed.
     
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  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The question of whether they were fixed or not has been chewed over a lot, that is true - but this premise requires accepting that they were fixed in order to move to the next question: How would it affect their legacies?

    If they were the only fixes in both fighter’s careers, still not good but I might just say two great fighters still but who participated in two fixed fights against one another - putting a ? as to who was actually the superior fighter as at that time.

    With 2 proven fixes on their resumes - one could go the way of suspecting other, yet to be proven fixes.

    I’ll keep my treatment simple and accept all other performances and achievements as being undoubtedly on the level.

    With that treatment their legacies could still be well damaged just for the impropriety - but for me at least, their resumes otherwise still hold them up to be the quality fighters we view them as today.

    Ironically, Liston might even benefit from 100% fixes for both fights 64/65, - most view him as being old, past prime and relatively inactive when Ali first beat him - so the question of a prime vs prime wasn’t actually resolved back in 64/65. The actual fights themselves did nothing for Liston’s legacy anyway, rather they damaged his rep, fixes or not.

    If absolute fixes were proven for the matches in 64/65 - then they shouldn’t, in themselves, provide any basis for a projected legit outcome as at that time or for a prime vs prime analysis and extrapolation.

    In fact, it’s possible that Liston’s projected chances in a REAL fight against Ali could reasonably default back to majority pundit opinion before the actual Miami fight - that opinion being that Liston would’ve easily beaten Ali - even the ‘64 version of Sonny, let alone the prime version of Liston.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If BOTH fights were fixed then Listons resume in his prime looks a bit better. It would mean that at his best, he not only never lost, he was never even down. However, it would make it worth questioning if other fights were fixed.

    It would still be hard to have Ali outside a top 3 ATG ranking since his resume is incredible even without the Liston fights. I think it would hurt his accomplishments tho since he can no longer be called the first 3x champion.

    The only thing that would damn their careers would be if both of them were working together to fix both fights. My philosophy is, just like PEDS, if you get caught once you get a stern warning and asterisk next to your name. but if you get caught fixing/cheating/etc twice, your entire career is now open to question for sure.
     
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  4. billyb71

    billyb71 Member Full Member

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    The Liston fights ar
    The Liston fights are such crown jewels in Ali's resume that proven fixes would damage his legacy immensely. What if it was proven that Ali drugged Foreman in Zaire and Frazier in Manila? The same. It would lower him several notches in public esteem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
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  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Resume and public esteem are 2 different things. Of course Ali's public profile would go down a lot.
     
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  6. ThatOne

    ThatOne Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The notion there were fixes is unlikely and in the unlikely event they were it's beyond unreasonable to assume Muhammad Ali was aware of them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
  7. billyb71

    billyb71 Member Full Member

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    If you've ever watched fight 2 you know it was fixed. It all hinges on Walcott's understanding of the Neutral Corner rule. Walcott had been a professional fighter for 25 years. Saying he didn't understand the Neutral Corner rule is like saying a baker didn't know what flour or an oven was. Walcott was in on the fix. I'm sure he was paid for it.
     
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  8. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's right. the first fight wasn't fixed, Liston wasn't right and simply got beat . There will never be a more open example of a fixed fight than Ali Liston II. It's the poster child for corruption. Even Ali knew it ,screaming at Liston,"to get up cause ain't nobody gonna believe this sh#t."The rumors of a dive had already circulated and Ali knew what was going on. Sonny was guilty of the worst acting job of the 20th century as he tried to rise and then flopped over onto his back. That was comical . I'd say the only thing Sonny feared at that time was the mob, certainly not Muhammed Ali.
     
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  9. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Naughty Polly is at it again, or maybe it was her grandparents.
     
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  10. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But there is no positive in it. There is no way someone moves up a few notches because he hit the deck in the first and he might have survived. Especially when he already los the first one.
     
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  11. billyb71

    billyb71 Member Full Member

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    He didn't hit the deck in the first. I think I'm wasting my time here.
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I think it'd really hurt Ali's first career. So he'd be left with a first career where he looked great but without that great win, and a second career with great wins, but some losses. I think Louis would be firmly ahead of Ali without that big win.

    As for Liston, he'd be a real enigma. I don't think it'd elevate him a whole lot, but you'd probably get a lot more variation
     
  13. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think you are too. Throwing a fight or doing so poorly that the ref can screw you rather than actually loosing it does not boost you several notches in any ordinary metric. Good luck to you.
     
  14. billyb71

    billyb71 Member Full Member

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    You said there is no evidence that Liston could have got up from the knockdown. In fact he did get up. Anyone who knows anything about that fight knows he did. You simply do not know enough to discuss it.
     
  15. sasto

    sasto Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Getting caught participating in a fix is just another way to lose a fight in my mind.

    Most fights are won and lost by physical
    or mental advantages but there's the moral/social dimension too. I'm weak, slow, and scared of him breaking my jaw. That's why I couldn't beat Ali.

    Liston was none of those things. For him, physically it was probable, mentally it was possible, but he was corrupted by his involvement with organized crime so it didn't happen.

    So I don't think you can give Liston a clean slate. Meanwhile he is a major legacy win. Quality opponent but most of all it shows he was great at a very young age. Otherwise Ali has a bunch of good wins but his first great win doesn't come for a long time.

    Could be a big part of why they had the fight in Maine. The Maine commission and Maine anti-racketeering efforts can't have been worth much.

    Never heard this, do you know if there's a good link out there that describes what they found?