If counting cruiserweight as heavyweight. who has better resume: Usyk or Holmes?

Cojimar 1946 · Mar 11, 2025

Bokaj said: ↑

So, I've been critical of Fury's choices for a long time, but "failure yo fight virtually every top fighter of his era" is really going off the deep end.

To start with, he has fought the two fighters that will go down as the greatest during his time as a pro: Wlad and Usyk. As for top fighters he missed during these years, we're pretty much down to Joshua and Povetkin and he did sign to fight Joshua, but the court ruling in favour of Wilder regarding a rubber came in the way.

You could argue that Parker also belong in the conversation of top fighters but between losing to Joshua in 2017 and beating Wilder in 2023, he wasn't regarded as much of a threat. Certainly not after being bulldozed by Joyce.

So I would absolutely liked to see Fury against better opp and am frustrated by how little risk he was prepared to take if there wasn't a title on the line (Chisora remains his best opponent in a non-title fight) and even then he would take the path of least resistance, choosing Wilder instead of Joshua in 2018 and avoiding undisputed with Usyk for two years.

But let's not rewrite history. Wlad was the top fighter when Fury fought him and aside from Joshua there wasn't anyone clearly better than Wilder and Whyte 2018-2023. You could always argue Povetkin, but he was on his way out when Fury returned in 2018. Did sleep Whyte and could still have been better than Wilder tbf, but in the end he was the rapidly ageing left over from Joshua.

The value of the Fury wins will probably never be a closed debate, though. On the one hand, Fury sleepwalked through easily defeating Whyte and Chisora in 2022, but his only fight in the 18 months pre Usyk 1 was a close win over a friggin MMA fighter. That's a fact we can't get away from.

I lean towards thinking that was a freak occurrence, and aside from aesthetics the Fury of the Usyk fights looked good to me. But you can't get away from the fact that he hadn't looked useful for quite a while going into the Usyk fights.
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We don't know how good Wilder is due to his poor competition and him losing when he finally stepped up albeit at an advanced age. So I'm not sure what we should make of Fury beating him.

Wlad is a good win but Sanders and Brewster beat Wlad and nobody is claiming either were anything special. Is there really enough evidence to say Fury is better than guys like Kabayel, Hrgovic, Dubois, Joshua etc?

GlaukosTheHammer · Mar 11, 2025

HistoryZero26 said: ↑

A-I'm not going to treat it that way because theres no evidence to support that. I told you I'd treat Usyks CW feats with relevance if those guys proved themselves at HW like prior gens of LHWs did and later generations didn't. Thats not an agenda and even if I don't like tweeners and have an agenda I'm being fair. I consider CW to be a B league of HW and Usyks competition haven't proven me wrong. In the historical conversation CW wasn't a weight class for most of boxing history and this is thus deeply relevant to comps.

While the division might be nominally based on weight guys who can compete at HW don't go to CW unless they are confident they can be the champ and theres only going to be one or two of those guys. Gassiev was ranked 10th at HW once and he was never a contender(someone who fought for title). I'm giving Usyk credit for beating him that the win is worth. You want to give Usyk the credit for beating someone ranked like 2nd in the HW B leagues which in past times would just be a decent HW win. In an ATG conversation the fact CW used to be HW is deeply relevant. I didn't say Gassiev and co are bums or even irelevant HWs they aren't what they are presented as at HW any more than a BW would be.

B-Chisora is a EBU and Commonwealth champion who loses most of his fights at the international level. Dunn is a EBU and Commonwealth champion who loses most of his fights at the international level. Chisora had 9 losses when Usyk fought him. Dunn had 9 losses when Ali fought him. Its an amazing comparison. The main difference is Chisora gets more oppurtunitys. Hes fighting in a lighter era while Dunn was fighting in the 70s this makes sense. Chisora didn't deserve the Fury title shot.

The US dominated boxing in a way the British aren't now even if they are the best boxing nation. The US had almost every champ for like 60 years. If all the top fighters were all British this wouldn't matter. They aren't. Also Ali and Holmes fought 9 and 4 non Americans for the title. They gave the best fighters from the Commonwealth countrys and Europe their shot.

C-Shavers was fighting in the 70s and has wins over Norton, Jimmy Young, Bugner and Jimmy Ellis. Chisoras best win of his career was his recent win over Wallin. Before that his top wins were Pulev, Takam and undefeated Malik Scott. Shavers was on a higher level in a better era. Maybe he is overrated. Doesn't really matter Chisoras not in that sort of air or he shouldn't be.

Chisoras arguably Vitalis best title opponents from his 2nd reign but that was a terrible reign. "He fought Vitali Klitschko for the title". So did Kevin Johnson. That reign was awful.

Norton, Evangelista, Ocasio, Weaver, Shavers,Zanon, Leroy Jones, Ali, Berbick, Leon Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Lucien Rodriguez, Witherspoon, Frazier, Bonecrusher, Bey, Carl Williams. Thats 18, Spinks would bring it to 20 as would the guys I left out who you could argue are better than Chisora. Scott Frank for all you poop on him was undefeated. LeDoux drew Norton and lost a split decision to Lyle. Cobb almost beat Norton too. Those are just debatable.

Given the history of the era Fury and Joshua being the best HWs is unclear especially in the 20s. Fury sat out 3 years and the best guys he fought from this era were Wilder, Wallin and Whyte. AJ mainly fought guys from the past era except Parker and Ruiz who he lost to when he was in shape. Now he got destroyed by Dubois. You know Kabayel didn't come out of nowhere right hes been waiting since 2016? Zhang was there the whole time. Whose to say Hrgovic hasn't been better? Whose to say Frank Sanchez couldn't beat them? They haven't proven it. Most champs who are around as long as those guys have done a better job proving it. If champs do not prove they are the best in a certain time period thats on them.

Tbf Holmes in the final years of his reign might not have been the best HW either but he was at least fighting new undefeated contenders even if he didn't get to everyone and in hindsight didn't get to the best ones at the end. Fury/AJ/Usyk weren't fighting from among the top contenders and picking the wrong ones they were fighting old guys from Wlads era, doing rematches and fighting common opponents. A champs job is to filter through the division like Wlad did most recently. This generation made an utter mockery of that duty. To an extent Usyk inherited that situation but he has not departed from that.

D-He lost as many rounds as Usyk did in a much larger period of time fighting more rounds. He was not losing rounds at close to the clip Usyk was no. Holmes had 4 closhish fights in 21 title fights before Spinks. Snipes he lost 3 of 15 rounds in a 5th contest. Usyk has dropped 4+ rounds in all his fights against HW contenders except Dubois where he had the foul. I am not being inconsistant because these two things are not the same. Ali in the 70s its close but he was fighting 15 rounds and it was the 70s. And Ali took out his easier opponents easy the whole way through its just close through a certain stretch.

The Dubois thing is complicated because of the foul and Dubois being younger. Like I said it has the potential to age well and to an extent already has. But thats actually both Usyks most controversial and best win. The jury is out on the whole thing to a degree.

In terms of AJ I and Fury II the cards have him losing 4 in both of those. While Fury I wasn't controversial if Usyk hadn't scored an uncharacteristic knockdown on a huge opponent he might have lost. Fury also took some rounds off. I and many expected Usyk to almost shut Fury out. People were not expecting Fury to manhandle Usyk because of his size they expected him to get embarassed.
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You've answered quite a lot based on this post so I'll try to be brief

Before laws prevented fighters from being too small to fight they used to fight at HW while weighing their lower weights. John L fought a few 150 pounders. Fitzs as HW champion is lighter than Fitzs as MW champion. Lighter as a HW. Forcing men to make a minimum or have a career of convincing commissions forces certain fighting styles out.

It is unfair to remove the weight from the division and claim some caliber of skills. Maybe the best of CW fight at their best at CW weight and would be more willing to fight at HW without minimums.

GlaukosTheHammer · Mar 11, 2025

Cojimar 1946 said: ↑

We don't know how good Wilder is due to his poor competition and him losing when he finally stepped up albeit at an advanced age. So I'm not sure what we should make of Fury beating him.

Wlad is a good win but Sanders and Brewster beat Wlad and nobody is claiming either were anything special. Is there really enough evidence to say Fury is better than guys like Kabayel, Hrgovic, Dubois, Joshua etc?
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This just means your eye test and actual achievements in the sport has no value but writers' eye test does.

Bokaj · Mar 11, 2025

Cojimar 1946 said: ↑

We don't know how good Wilder is due to his poor competition and him losing when he finally stepped up albeit at an advanced age. So I'm not sure what we should make of Fury beating him.

Wlad is a good win but Sanders and Brewster beat Wlad and nobody is claiming either were anything special. Is there really enough evidence to say Fury is better than guys like Kabayel, Hrgovic, Dubois, Joshua etc?
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You were saying he didn't beat the top guys. Who was more proven than Wlad at that time do you mean to say? Wlad was head and shoulders above anyone else, pf course. Saying anything else is crazy revisionism.

Fury's resume so far certainly beats Kabayel's and Dubois's, but let's wait and see. Their good wins have taken place pretty much since Fury signed with Usyk, though. I don't see them as quite the same era.

Hrgovic has done very little so far. He's no way near Fury. And this is from someone that doesn't like Fury at all.

Joshua or Fury is probably a question that will be debated for a long time to come. Can't really say. But for the most part of Usyk's time at HW, they have been the top guys.

OddR · Mar 11, 2025

I mean Sanders and Brewster are good fighters. They should probably get more credit for those wins against Wlad.

Brewster took some of the most ridiculous shots from a massive punching SHW who might be the hardest puncher ever and still found a way of winning.

Bokaj · Mar 11, 2025

Bokaj said: ↑

You were saying he didn't beat the top guys. Who was more proven than Wlad at that time do you mean to say? Wlad was head and shoulders above anyone else, pf course. Saying anything else is crazy revisionism.

Fury's resume so far certainly beats Kabayel's and Dubois's, but let's wait and see. Their good wins have taken place pretty much since Fury signed with Usyk, though. I don't see them as quite the same era.

Hrgovic has done very little so far. He's no way near Fury. And this is from someone that doesn't like Fury at all.

Joshua or Fury is probably a question that will be debated for a long time to come. Can't really say. But for the most part of Usyk's time at HW, they have been the top guys.
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Don't know who Holmes beat who was on Fury and Joshua 's level....

Norton, but he was ageing. Came off a win nover Young, though. Witherspoon was still in development, but had a good win over Page the year after. Both close wins, but I guess they're somewhere up there.

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If counting cruiserweight as heavyweight. who has better resume: Usyk or Holmes?

Who has better wins?

Larry Holmes

Oleksandyr Usyk

Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict Full Member

GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict Full Member

Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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If counting cruiserweight as heavyweight. who has better resume: Usyk or Holmes?

Who has better wins?

Larry Holmes

Oleksandyr Usyk

Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict Full Member

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