If Floyd Patterson Beat Jimmy Ellis?

You're right Il Duce!:good

 

A third Liston-Patterson match ??

That would have been a joke.
Sonny's corpse could have beaten Floyd Patterson.

 

I'm inclined to agree.

 

From my perspective, it's critical to review Patterson-Chuvalo in speculating on Patterson-Liston III. While an early knockdown by Sonny is extremely plausible, there is no grim straight ahead charge in the offing here.

Billy Joiner went seven rounds and then the ten round distance in back to back fights with Sonny at this time. Billy weighed 189 and 195 for these two encounters. Leotis Martin weighed 199. Floyd, always in top condition, had weighed as much as 200 pounds (although 188-189 may have been optimal), and had acquired valuable post title big man experience in chopping down Powell and Herring. (Todd Herring was in Stockholm, so Swedish fans already knew Patterson could beat a decent heavyweight of Liston's size.) Summerlin, Marshall, Whitehurst, Machen, Joiner and Martin demonstrated throughout Liston's career span that it was possible to scale under 200 pounds and still hang with Sonny if movement and intelligent boxing was applied. Floyd was greater and more talented than all six combined. In 1969, he also had the experience and smarts missing when he took on Liston in 1962 and 1963. We are now discussing a Patterson who has a dozen more fights and half a dozen more years of seasoning behind him. We also need to factor in that he now knew how well he could respond to going the championship distance, waters the older and heavier Liston had never tread in.

This may well have been the most confident Patterson we would have ever seen, coming off a win with Ellis. Machen, Cooper and Chuvalo were a trio of contenders frozen out by D'Amato during his reigns, and he had since discovered at their expense that he was much better than he might have believed without ever taking them on. He was better against Eddie than Sonny had been, ending an 11 fight three year unbeaten streak by Machen. Veteran Cooper, who had been in the ring with Ali twice, rated Floyd's hand speed as superior, an assessment which Floyd had to have found inspiring. Patterson-Cooper was the final decisive loss of 'Enery's career, and not on cuts either, but by clean knockout.

Sonny was obviously laboring in the late rounds of the win over Clark, huffing and puffing, an observation Cosell and Dundee noted and commented on. Patterson would likely plan to exploit this, thus scheme to take Sonny deep. He was far better suited to box and move on Liston than Frazier was to attempt likewise in his rematch with Foreman.

 

Here's an opportune moment to bring up this very interesting post about Joiner in a Liston vs Holmes thread from September 2007, including an interview with this common opponent of a late career Liston and embryonic Holmes:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=451583&postcount=9

 

In order of priority these are the fights that I would seek for Patterson without the benefit of hindsight.

1. I'd put him in there with Bob Foster first he'd be a pretty decent test and he'd be a good name on the resume.

2. If Foster's not available then I set my sights to Joe Frazier who was simply to hard to ignore at that point.

3. Challenge Gold Medalist George Foreman. He's powerful, undefeated and a solid name to have on the resume. (he'd be pretty green at that point and obviously we don't have the benefit of hindsight)

4. Another go with Jerry Quarry

5. Rematch Ellis

Last Option:
Patterson Liston III: Sonny was older, but so was Patterson. Why put all your lotto winnings on the roulette table? In boxing, when you come off a big win and you pursuing your next move, you'll find that there are no victories in moral victories especially if Liston Patterson III turns into a Foreman Frazier 2.


What is not an option:
Retire - Getting the Verdict against Ellis would have put him in the front of the division. Why should he cash out that early? In terms of legacy and financially there was so much more left that retiring simply wouldn't be an option.

It would have been simply imprudent to wait for what was clearly an uncertain future against Muhammad Ali. At the time, jail was a possibility so I can't imagine why Floyd would wait for him.

 

I wouldn´t call it robberies but close fights that went to the wrong men.

 

Sounds something like Ted Lowry, Bob Stallings, George Chaplin and Leroy Caldwell. (Leroy did have some televised wins during an excellent five fight streak from late 1980 to late 1981, with fans chanting his name. He also rebounded from the knockout loss to Coetzee with a respectable ten round showing against Tate. He lost his final six fights starting with Gerrie, but the opponents after Big John were Anthony Davis, Bey, Coetzer and Tillman, who it must be said also all had to go the distance to win.)

My favorite deceptive record is that of 2(0)-19(2)-1 FW David Capo. Those who saw him defeat 8-0-0 Leo Randolph in his second professional bout at the Felt Forum (which is recorded on tape), or go ten scorching rounds with 20-1-0 Freddie Roach on ESPN from the Bradford Hotel in Boston (also on tape) knows Capo was infinitely better than his record shows. (The fists of Roach and Capo were a blur on the screen. The timekeeper was so transfixed by the nonstop action in the final round as to forget to ring the bell at the end of three minutes. Round ten lasted four minutes with no let up from either Freddie or David. Roach-Capo would be a terrific one to see pop up on youtube. It was the first great bout I remember seeing on ESPN. Boxrec does not record that "Fast Freddie" was an earlier nickname of Roach's for good reason. Later in his career, he had slowed down considerably.)

 

Yes, Liston-Patterson III may have very well turned out to be another Foreman-Frazier II, but it still would have redeemed Floyd..I especially think it would have redeemed Floyd to himself.

 

Also, it must be remembered that Floyd himself made the decision to defend against Liston in 1962. In his own mind, he may well have felt it was necessary for the credibility of the WBA Title he had just won to defend it against an opponent who previously starched him twice. Once taking it from Ellis, Liston is somebody everybody would have been thinking about, and Sonny had just returned to American television two months prior to Ellis-Patterson with the win over Clark, signaling a certain measure of return to credibility after Lewiston.

Foreman-Frazier II? Perhaps. But again, Floyd was extremely well conditioned and disciplined. He had obtained tremendous experience and seasoning since Liston II. Now there was a brand new understanding of how well he could perform to the final bell over the championship distance, something he never knew before. That lack of championship distance experience cost him against Ellis, as he over paced himself with excessive caution. If Valan had awarded Floyd the decision which AP scored in his favor 7-4-4, Sonny would not have benefited from the same self doubt Ellis escaped by.

Joe Frazier was clearly shot by Foreman II, over 20 pounds past his best weight, over five years past his physical peak, and five years older than George.

Patterson was never shot as a fighter, even when he stopped competing in 1972. He maintained his peak weight even into his late 30s, a virtually unknown achievement for a heavyweight champion. He was at least three years younger than Liston. Conditioning, youth, speed, experience, mobility and skill were all in his favor. The championship distance experience with Ellis completed his education as a boxer.

Liston II was six years behind them, and a lot had changed. The veneer of invincibility Sonny brought with him into those earlier bouts with Floyd had been forever shattered. With a bad back, Patterson had lasted twice as long with a peak Ali as Liston had done in two bouts. Floyd knew he had the bigger heart, one of the few things he did not doubt about himself. He also knew he could turn the tables on a foe who had previously wiped him out unceremoniously, like Ingo, and very possibly yes, like Sonny.

By having consoled Liston following Lewiston as Patterson did, things could never be the same between them as they were in 1962 and 1963. Floyd was not intimidated by Ingo when he regained the crown in 1960, and he would not be intimidated by Sonny in 1969. He would be very highly motivated though, and much, much smarter. Liston, on the other hand, just might take Floyd for granted. The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of Patterson-Liston III in Stockholm. Floyd wasn't shy about taking on opponents who had previously stopped him. He returned the favor to Ingo twice. Looking at how Martin-Liston ended with Sonny on his face, I have to wonder. Does Floyd beat Leotis to the mark, and have another championship round performance on a huffing and puffing aging Liston end with another left hook from hell, and another legendary reversal of history?