If Frazier could beat Ali...why cant Tyson? Just sayn....

Well explain to me how an ATG like Larry Holmes was not a higher-calibre opponent against Tyson in '88 than the guys Ali defended his title against between '65-'67?

I already broke down my rationale here: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8679877#post8679877 which by no means you have to agree with, but as a forum I would love to hear your thoughts. A public forum is meant to generate two-way communication and frankly smileys just don't cut it as an effective argument.

Granted Holmes was inactive in '87, but his last fight was a very close one against Spinks and he came into the Tyson fight in supreme shape and at his prime weight.

Holmes proved he still was a very good boxer after Tyson, able to mix it with Holyfield, McCall and even manged to beat Mercer (who had just come off an upset win against the WBO champ Morrison).

He was 53 years old when he beat sideshow-freak-boxer/MMA fighter Butterbean.

 

How come you don't apply this same rationale to Tyson v Ali?

Tyson was most efficient when he was allowed to move forward, cutting off the ring and able to land 3 and 4 punch combinations to the body. Tyson like Marciano works best against taller opponents because they both can crouch which forces their oppoponent to lean in to land any meaningful punches, which Tyson was incredible at slipping.

Ali is a mover and his weakness was always the left hook and shorter opponents who ducked under his jabs. Time-and-time again Ali got hit by left hooks and the only thing which kept him upright was his granite chin. Tyson probably wouldn't land a big right hand, but he'd land plenty of hooks to the body, and if Chuvalo can do serious damage to Ali, how is he going to deal with a harder and more accurate body-puncher.

Quite simply we have Tyson fighting an opponent who'se style has never bothered him and actually matches up well against versus Ali who had traditionally struggled with these kinds of fighters.

Tyson's weakness was fighting off the backfoot - watch Douglas and Holyfield and you'll see they both stood their ground and even forced him back where he couldn't set up and generate his usual punching power. I am consistant as I don't think Tyson beats Foreman as he was also quite exceptional at tangling up the arms on the inside and his style is all wrong.

Not saying Tyson definitely wins against Ali or Foreman definitely wins against Tyson, but after breaking it down from a technical level thats how I see it. I think the whole mental argument has been exaggerated as his original team were more than capable at keeping Tyson focused. Give me something to work with.

 

Ali wouldn't even start fighting 'till about the 4th round. Tyson was always a front runner, and would be fully frustrated by then at which point ali would pic him apart.

Joe frazier had 100 times more heart than mike.

 

That only means you might win or lose money.

So many people are too sure of themselves. The most sure tend to have the worst records in predicting fights.

No need to tell me your record. I don't want the "OK, but I....." thing.

No **** knows and it is too hard to predict.

Write a fanfic if you want.

 

which tyson are you putting in the ring here?
the one that imploded and it's easy to find weaknesses with, or the one that could have beaten any man in his prime?

 

You know you just made that up, right?

 

Good.

 

it's easy for anyone to pick strengths and weaknesses about a fighter to suit their arguement. if a fighter is great he makes his way into threads just like this one repeatedly, i think.

the rest is down to people's preferences, opinions, and at the end of the day the unanswerable question of who would win.

 

Frazier trained harder he worked harder

hell he had so much more heart

had the Thrilla in Manilla been a 12 rounder like today I think he would have won

Frazier never stopped he was bobbing weaving inside that left hook is better than most guys whole arsenals

Ali the night he lost (not making excuses) was off a lyoff had 2 fights Bonavena he didnt look great til the end

Frazier was a work horse Tyson wasnt

Frazier grinds you Tyson jsut hits you

Ali could beat you a million ways and even in your own game sometimes

 

My question is when did Tyson ever dig deep when was he trailing and rallied and showed the never say die attitude

 

by the time we got to ask that question of him tyson was already a man deeply at odds with himself.
that's part of what makes him such a fascinating man.

in his prime he was a wrecking ball and he defined perfectly why people watch boxing.
but he was a very fragile man and is a perfect example of how a great fighter can suddenly turn to dust without strong guidance, discipline, desire and mental toughness.