If Frazier could beat Ali....why can't Tyson? Just sayn....

What about increasing LHW 15 pounds, and then putting HW back to everything about 190 again. Might improve both divisions.

What didi you suggest Gaz?

 

I'm sure that with my same day weigh-INS and no cruiserweight theory, plus one title, that we'd see Jean Pascal fight as a Heavy.

If that were the case I pick B-Hop to snag the genuine World Heavyweight title before retiring :yep

How did I come round to your point? I can't imagine that ever happening, I'm too stubborn not even the great GazOc could budge me......or could he?

 

I just think his HW career is smoke and mirrors, and that he's a complete and utter ****, that's all.

But for some reason everyone seems to just worship him..... his fans are more rabid than Pacquiao's :yikes

Anyways.... we'll leave that there.

I've not seen it either, apparently Lebedev was more than worth a decision win 8-4ish but was ripped off.

 

Lebedev got screwed man, it was awful. He was all over Huck in that fight, won the lion's share of the rounds (from memory, i was drunkish then, and i'm drunkish now ) but Huck got the hometown decision. Felt awful for Leb after the fight, he looked sickened.

 

Thanks Ed, makes a whole lot more sense now :good Lebedev is a tank.

 

We got onto binning the division and I disagreed. I don't think its reasonable to ask 190lb fighters to take on 250lb+ fighters and mentioning the odd fighter here and there who has managed to do it doesn't help the 99% of the guys that size who would spend their careers fighting in a division they can't compete in purely due to their size.

Boxing has always had weight divisions because, given equally matched ability, its the best way of ensuring a fair fight. I don't think that magically alters when you get to 200lbs.

I'd listen to arguments for abolishing all the other "*******" divisions but I think a cruiserweight division is a nessesity these days.

 

I think Tyson was a better fighter than Frazier personally.

 

Its a known fact that Muhammad Ali was lazy in training camps, against some fighters. Muhammad Ali treated training as a casual things as times, pretty much like having a cup of tea....because he was a very talented guy.

When Muhammad Ali had fear of his opponents, this is when he was 100% serious about training in my opinion. I'm not saying Muhammad Ali used to come badly out of shape for fights, but there are not that many training camps, where he left it all in the ring. Left every stone unturned, and ask himself every question......

Against George Foreman, Sonny Liston, and maybe the Ken Norton II or III.......i can't remember which one, but Ali was ****ing ripped up! COMPARED TO HIS NORM.

These guys scared Muhammad Ali, i think these where the only two times when he actually feared for himself inside of the ring.

I think Mike Tyson would be that type of oponentS that would have, Muhammed Ali up like a mother......that would put fear into him.

Here is a video, which explains basically what i'm on about psychologically.........


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgcl9qLqX5I[/ame]



I think the Ali that beat Cleveland Williams, and George Foreman would Mike Tyson over over 15 rounds....in a war.

Any other Version of Muhammad Ali, would be beaten by Mike Tyson...!!!!

 

The alternative I've always favored has been; set Heavyweight as ~190 to ~230. (could be a bit of leeway on either) Big guys, but not huge guys, and HWs would have to stay in shape to compete.

If you want to have a division for guys bigger than that, fine, if there is good comp for that then fair enough, but I doubt i'll watch it.

Then make LHW move up to 190, and maybe stretch the other division below out a bit and reduce the number. I cant remember exactly but one of my mates was telling me the weight classes in MMA and there was only a handfull and it made much more sense.

I think a cap on HW division is definitely a good idea though, we need a good strong heavyweight division for the sport, and as you say, asking guys to fight with a huge weight disadvantage for it makes no sense.

 

Having no cruiserweight division is insanity. You can't do it. Lebedev, Wladimir Klitschko.

 

That would exclude a lot of modern heavyweights who were in decent shape. Lewis, both Klits, Tua, Grant, Golota etc.

I appreciate that "stretching" the divisions might be good idea but as a boxing history fan I like the idea if the divisions being the same weights pretty much throughout history (although differring weigh in procedures have messed about with that a wee bit) and the heavyweight division being the "open" class for the very biggest fighters.

To me if you need (say) 15 divisions to cover from 8 stone to 14-15 stone as you did in the 60s and 70s then it stands to reason that you are going to need more to cover all the way up to 17-18 stone.

The guys at these weights arn't odd fighter here and there like they were before the 1990s, its what a lot of top heavyweights are consistantly weighing in at these days and not every fighter is a Tyson, a Dempsey or a Marciano and able to offset such a large size advantage.

 

I don't have a massive issue with the current divisions, except a couple of the lower ones which only serve to dilute the talent pool down there which smaller fighters simply can not afford if they're going to make money. However, I'd say the ideal and only viable/fair way of stretching them is doing the 'classic' divisions + cruiserweight.

 

But one world title would solve that. Fighters would have to fight more regularly. Would Levedev have as much trouble with Vitali if Vitali had already fought four times that year and Lebedev just three, against men closer to his own size (he stopped Chad Dawson in a round and Vitali had just beaten Tony Bellew and Cleverly within two months of each other)...Vitalis body would be shot!

15 rounders as well :yep

In short, a massive upheaval is required to give the HW division a boost IMO. And Gaz, I do go by the 'you don't have to be a big puncher when you weigh a certain amount' and I think it's true. I mean, Shavers was about 210 max at his best, is it unfeasible to see him sparking a few of the bigger guys from today? Wlad would bust him up, tore him out and stop him late but I wouldn't say that Valuev or Vitali necessarily would.

I know you've admitted there are exceptions, I'm just saying I actually think the optimum HW is smaller than what has prevailed in recent years. You get a few decent big men like Lennox and Riddick, but the Klitschkos are ruling because of the state of the division IMO, a division that could be boosted with more depth. I mean, the only two viable contenders are former Cruisers, so that's two
of the top four Heavies who are smaller there.

 

I don't follow Oriental boxing much, are those divisions below Fly needed for those guys?