If Frazier retired after the FOC

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by crippet, Jul 22, 2016.



  1. crippet

    crippet Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,377
    18
    Dec 1, 2007
    If Frazier retired after the FOC for whatever reason....

    How would he honestly be viewed now?

    Would he be the GOAT? Would he be judged lesser?

    He would be unbeaten with his finale a victory over Ali

    What does everyone think?
     
  2. Phil_Ivey_76

    Phil_Ivey_76 Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,811
    168
    Aug 26, 2013
    To me Frazier is very underrated. Remember he only lost to the very best. To me it wouldn't make any difference if he retired undefeated.
     
  3. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,147
    6,350
    Jul 17, 2009
    His stock would have risen.


    There would have been questions asked about whether he would have beaten Muhammad Ali in a rematch but he'd have been the winner in the only fight between them. Nobody would have thought how a Frazier-Foreman bout would have gone as George would n't have been given much of a chance,anyhow.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    The most a fighter can possibly do is beat the best active fighters convincingly during their own career span.

    Ali, Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano did this. After two hiccups Lennox too.

    If Frazier retired after the first Ali fight he has a great career because he cleaned out the house.

    The best fighters of his particular era were Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonnavena and Chuvalo. And Frazier beat them. So Frazier could feasibly go #4 retiring undefeated because he only missed out Liston and Patterson among active great fighters of his own career span.

    With Liston and Patterson on there it's as great a resume as there is!
     
  5. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,597
    7,605
    Jun 9, 2010
    I agree with this, in principle. On paper it would look good, but I'm not all that sure it would have sealed him as the great fighter Frazier is considered to be, today.

    With a pro record consisting of only 27 bouts and being relatively young at 26/27 years old, his résumé would have looked a bit thin.
    We should perhaps also remember how vigorously Ali disputed the decision (once the immediate dust had settled). Combine this with their fight having been one of the greatest ever, and I think Frazier would have been hard-pressed not have a rematch; the denial of which might have had a longer term impact on his historical standing.

    We also would never have had the Thrilla In Manila; a bout which added significantly to the definition of both men (and probably should have been the last fight for both of them). Would Foreman have even become World Heavyweight Champion in the '70s, if the titles had been relinquished by Joe? Possibly not.

    Despite Frazier losing twice to both Foreman and Ali, the 70's decade of Heavyweight Boxing was much richer with him in it; helped define the era and, if nothing else, established Frazier as a legendary contributor to those times.
     
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    Good post.

    With Frazier retiring what would have been the next title fight?
     
  7. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,597
    7,605
    Jun 9, 2010
    Could have gone any number of ways. Both Foreman and Quarry could well have vied for the vacant belts and this would have been Foreman's chance to take the title.

    But, if Ali had been able to get in the front of the queue, it might well have been the case that he faced either Foreman or Quarry (and most likely have taken them).

    Just think - We might have seen Ali/Foreman accelerated by 2-3 years. And, we might not have seen Ali / Norton, at all.

    Would Ali have retired earlier, having taken less punishment?
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    Quite possibly. I have never felt George deserved his shot at Frazier over an Ali rematch.

    When you look at Foremans 1972 opponents and compare them with Ali's 1972 opposition it seems a disgrace George got there before Ali as it was.

    The Ali travling carnival was so big he was never going to retire any earlier than he did. Ali was supporting too many people to retire and he thrived on an audience.
     
  9. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,597
    7,605
    Jun 9, 2010

    Yes - It seems strange when you look back at it. Across '70-'72, Foreman somehow managed to secure a number 2 or 3 Ring ranking, behind Ali. To know on what basis this had occurred, would need some revisiting of the archives and the history books, perhaps.

    Ali, following his loss to Frazier and leading up to the point at which Foreman got his shot, had gone through at least three maybe four top-ten Heavyweights. I can't say either Foreman or Frazier had beaten even one, during the same period, before they met each other.

    One could suspect Ali was being frozen out and that, despite his KO ratio of over 90%, Foreman wasn't perceived as a threat by Frazier (on account of there being no one seriously challenging on his résumé). Although, I often read with a certain disbelief that it was because of Frazier's loss to Foreman and Ali's to Norton that their rematch was delayed - :huh

    You're no doubt right about Ali continuing to Box until he simply couldn't step through the ropes anymore. He was ever riveted to the sport; through fame, money, adoration and, of course, maintaining his position as 'The Greatest' - to all of which I suspect he had somewhat of an addiction (no surprise there, really).
     
  10. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,591
    196
    Feb 5, 2005
    Great post!!
     
  11. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

    5,291
    967
    Nov 7, 2011

    I agree based on the concept that it is hard to argue against speculation. Chances are that we would not appreciate Ali's or Foreman's greatness if he called it a career in 71.
     
  12. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,591
    196
    Feb 5, 2005
    If he retired after the FOC he would likely be rated in the top 15, somewhat similar to SRL, but funny enough, I think Ali's ranking would drop considerably.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    95,062
    24,778
    Jun 2, 2006
    For me his standing would not be significantly changed, I think he got Ali at the right time.
    What damages Frazier's status is not only the way Foreman blew him away,and the two later defeats to Ali, but the fact that he has one monster win and a relatively ordinary resume apart from it.
    Quarry,Ellis, and Bonavena are fine wins, but nothing you would put past the abilities of a prime Machen,Folley,Terrell , or a Patterson.
    I haven't made a top ten for awhile but I doubt Joe would make it now, [maybe number ten ,]let alone be seriously considered for GOAT.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    95,062
    24,778
    Jun 2, 2006
    Mac Foster was no 5 in71, Ron Lyle no 4 in 72.
    Rated or not, I think you would agree, Patterson would not have been a viable opponent for champion Frazier.
    The Liston fight could have happened when Frazier was coming up Durham sensibly sidestepped that one.

    As champion, there was only a narrow window for Frazier to defend against Sonny, again big risk, little reward..
     
  15. foreman&dempsey

    foreman&dempsey Boxing Addict banned

    4,805
    145
    Dec 7, 2015
    a top 5 100% sure