If George Foreman had to fight against every heavyweight Champion before him how would he fare?

My outlook isn't negative JT any more then yours is romanticized. I simply see Foreman and his career differently than you do.

As far as Lyle, yes he started late and it was because he was a hard core street thug who smoked and did not take care of his body till into his mid twenties .. add in the factor that he was legally stabbed to death in prison, was clinically dead and revived and suffered massive internal injuries along the way that kept him from ever being 100 percent of what he might have been. Before getting off the deck in a brutal battle with Shavers, Lyle froze and was stopped by Ali in a title bout and was diced up by Jimmy Young . Essentially Lyle was a 34 year old fighter who lost two of his previous three fights in the year coming into the Foreman match up and was picked as comeback opponent because he was hittable, slow, froze against Ali showing an undependable chin and so stylistically good for George while being an interesting TV match up for the network.

My reference to Cooney was one of rating a fighter by wins over tailor made opponents not saying Cooney was better than Foreman. As far and Frazier and Norton, if you refuse to factor in styles when analyzing accomplishments , both advantageous and not so then that's how you choose to rate fighters. I see it very differently and stand by it.

 

If he couldn't beat Jimmy Young how do you rationalize he destroy's Tunney or Sharkey ? Based on what wins against like kind boxers that had speed, excellent chins, conditioning and overall excellent boxing ability ? I know you don't like Sharkey's barrel chested build but there was much more to him than that , especially if you're going by A games.

 

I strongly disagree. You are virtually casting aside his wins over Frazier and Norton and comparing them to Cooney's wins over washed up versions of thoroughly Norton and Lyle. It's like comparing Berbick's win over Ali to Frazier's etc

Whether he ended up short of what he could have been Lyle ended up a fine fighter regardless and was prime. He showed great heart in coming off the canvas and KO'ing Shavers. Holmes did it and gets heavily lauded, well so did Lyle.

As for Ali, well Lyle was winning the fight at the time of stoppage. I wouldn't say he froze as Ali pounded him in the 8th round and he gamely hung in there and came back and actually won the round prior to the stoppage. He came to the end of his tether against the still capable GOAT. No shame in that.

Young beat him both before and after Ali. It's no secret Lyle struggled against slicksters and Young has his number.......hence George being just as stylistically good for Lyle as vice versa. If boxers were his weakness well surely Foreman played into some of his strengths. If anything Foreman should be lauded for taking on a top 5 contender first up after losing to Ali, and after more than a years inactivity to boot. Lyle was a banger too. Brave choice as the orthodox passage is choosing a safe opponent.

Lyle performing well against Foreman completely flies in the face of your claims that he was "so stylistically good for George", layoff or no layoff.

No good poster rates Cooney much on Lyle and Norton as they know they were washed up and or shot. There's jokes made on the forum about it almost on a weekly basis at times. As a matter of fact one poster just bashed Cooney for fighting guys ready for the nursing home just yesterday. If we want to take away and minimize everyone's wins over guys we personally deem to be stylistically suited then there's going to be some huge changes to historic reputations. Post exile Ali was well suited for Frazier so do we write off the FOTC win? Then we have Ali winning twice as well so where does that leave poor Joe? Danny Lopez was beautifully suited for Sanchez but no-ones fobbing those wins off. The smaller Gomez was too for that matter but it's rightfully considered an ATG win and great achievement. Patterson was in Sonny's wheelhouse but not many are undermining those two wins. It's simply unfair as quality is quality.

 

There is no point in going round and round as you grasp at straws getting off point .. I disagree with you , period. Foreman did not beat one quality boxer ( defined by skill, chin , speed and conditioning ) in his career but lost decisively to two in Ali and Young. .. no amount of praising his stylistic match up victories over small swarmer Frazier and catatonic vs huge punchers Norton makes up for that nor am I debating his effectiveness in such match ups . The thread is about how he matches up all time and I say he was very vulnerable to certain styles. It has zero to do with quality, it is styles. A beats B , B beats C , doesn't mean A beats C. Cannot make it any clearer.

 

I'm not grasping at straws rest assured.

But you are right we aren't going to get anywhere. He'd be put in jail for what he'd do to guys like Sharkey.

 

Maybe or maybe not but as this shows George was neutered and a completely less effective fighter against boxers and while I respect Young I do not rate him as a great fighter ..

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I'd take quite a few fighters to beat post Ali Foreman. He sure didn't take his first loss well. Fighters who get carried away with their own invincibility can be like that at times. I'd take notably less fighters to beat the undefeated version.