If Hearns fought at 175 in the 1940s, what are his odds at being champion

Years later and the Bivins fights were at HW. In his respective 2nd fights with Bivins and Marshall Charles ate 9 counts too. Anyway Hearns has to deal with all 3 likely multiple times.

Moore was great. He just wasn't as good as in the 50s. After getting shutout by Charles he fought him real close the next 2 times. He also improved after the bad loss to Bivins. Moore was getting better as he healed. But you're right he probably beats Hearns regardless. I agree he'd lose to Charles too. But the point was if Charles got wrecked so badly against Bivins and Marshall in the early 40s what chance would Hearns have?

Yes those would be his 2 main chances but thats a very narrow window for 10 years. Fox was number 1 going into his first shot but 3rd going into the rematch behind Charles and Moore. If Lesnevich would choose Fox rematch over Charles and Moore why would it be different for Hearns? Lesnevich is really only available in 41 and early 47-early 48. After that Gus would be off to the UK again where he'd lose to Mills like you mentioned. Maxim would unify in the first month of the next decade. I agree Gus would be easier.


The problem with me is the non title fights more than the belt. I think hes got a better chance of beating any of those guys then actually getting there. The average SOS of an opponent is crazy. And if he starts at WW and MW like he did in his real career hes got the other "Murderers Row" members who are mostly all Marshalls size even if they never went up to LHW.

 

According to boxrec Charles defeated Bivins also in the light heavyweight division, more precisely in September 1948. It was the 4th match between them and the second disputed in the light heavyweight division, the other 3 were fought in the heavyweight division. In 5 matches against Bivins Charles lost only once (in the 1st) and then beat him 4 times.....

Also regarding the matches with Moore I must immediately correct what you wrote. The Old Mangust had only one close fight against Charles (the 2nd, where The Cincinnati Cobra won by MD). The 1st match between them and the 3rd were not close at all, in the 1st Charles won with the following scorecards: 10 - 0, 9 - 1, 9 - 1 while in the 3rd Charles won by KO in round 8.

I totally agree about the fact that Moore did better in the '50s than in the '40s. Instead, on the question of why Lesnevich had to meet Hearns instead of Fox for the 2nd time, you can see it in different ways (Hearns could have beaten Fox for example). Even when you ask how many chances Hearns would have had to beat the Charles who lost against Bivins and Marshall, I can ask you the opposite question, how many chances would Charles have had to beat the Hearns who lost against Barkley? Charles after those defeats beat Marshall and Bivins several times, while Hearns never got revenge against Barkley.

I mean, I want to tell you that going beyond the matches that have taken place and that are objective things for the rest, some things can be seen in different ways.

Thanks in any case for our dialogue, it was pleasant. I signed up to the forum this year and I see that the average level of knowledge of boxing is very good (on social media it's a disaster, too many fanboys). There's a lot of talk about fantasy matches here, it's a nice game that I also like but I think that talking about rankings is even nicer. When I have time I want to open a topic, I like to have conversations like the one you and I are having, it's nice to cordially compare when you have different opinions (on social media it's almost impossible).

 

Boxer rec says its a 175 fight but both are above the 175 limit. The 2nd and 3rd fight both just have Bivins above the limit.

I said the 2nd and 3rd fights were close after the 1st one was a near shut out. According to boxer rec in the 3rd fight Moore almost knocked Charles out in the same round he was knocked out in. It was 5-2 on the scorecards but Moore almost got the knockout.

Yeah I'm speculating on what the reason the rematch happened was. It seems like Fox landed a beautiful punch or something in an otherwise lopsided loss.

I meant chances to get a title shot. I wasn't talking about Hearns chances to get Charles. I meant if Bivins and Marshall beat Charles so badly what chance of beating Bivins and Marshall does Hearns have?

Thank you for the kind words. Appreciate them.

 

According to boxrec the 1st and 3rd match between Charles and Bivins were in the light heavyweight division, even though in the 3rd one boxer weighed 176 pounds and another 178. But in my opinion it makes little difference, we are talking about two fighters who have fought together 5 times and are 4 to 1.....

On Charles - Moore 3 if you tell me that it was close 'until the moment of the stop' it is one thing, otherwise 'It's a close fight' means another thing. I'll give you an example, for me the first 3 matches between Pacquiao and Marquez were 'close', in the 4th I can say that it was close 'until the moment of the stop', because I'm talking about a match in which a boxer won with a clear and clean knockout. But here too I say that little changes and it is only a verbal detail, because we are talking about 2 boxers who have fought together 3 times and are 3 to 0......

Regarding Lesnevich - Fox 1 the media say that Lesnevich clearly won by tko and offering an very good performance so I don't know why there was a rematch. But precisely for this reason I say that Lesnevich avoided Charles, if the champion is made a good economic offer to face the most dangerous challenger in the category and he instead prefers to face a boxer who the previous year he clearly defeated by tko in my opinion the champion has clearly avoided the most dangerous challenger in the category.

How many chances would Hearns have had to beat Bivins and Marshall? He would have had some, we are talking about a great champion who gave his best in welterweight and superwelterweight but who was also strong in light heavyweight, where in addition to Andries he also defeated a very good fighter like Hill.

 

Nope, perhaps Moore and Charles would maybe kill him.