If Hopkins beats Pavlik, does he surpass RJJ on the ATG list?

Jones won the fight by a very clear margin.

However, he did NOT embarrass Hopkins.

No-one has so far.

(I've never seen his first loss, but I've never heard that it was an embarrsssment).


I had expected Calzaghe to embarrass Bernard, but he didn't.

I believe he won a very clear decision, but we saw a lesser Calzaghe than I was anticipating and we saw a better Brnard than many thought would show up.


This next outing could prove a bridge too far for the old warrior, but Kelly is no Joe, and I have a feeling that Bernard just might pull it off.

 

Bhop beating Pavlik will make him surpass all ATG's, junior included but that's only my opinion. RJJ's being a p4p # 1 for almost a decade is a feat very difficult to replicate. If the moneyman hadn't retired, maybe...

 

Nope. And, what the f8ck is "The Thruth?"

 

Nopes!!!! Definitely not.

Pavlik is an action fighter . . . an exciting one . . . but he is not a factor to be CONSIDERED when you talk of ATG. Not yet. :deal

 

As for how I feel on the subject...

I feel its deeper than just wins over each other...or the win/loss that will result (in whichever order) in their next respective fights. You have to take EVERYTHING into account.

Accomplishments - Hopkins was the undisputed MW champ for longer than ANYONE has ever been. He also moved up later in his career and won the LHW title as well. Jones was the clear LHW champion (do people really think DM would have beaten him?), won titles from MW - HW. Most consider both in the top 3-5 of their respective prime weight classes (Jones at LHW, Hopkins at MW). But because of the sheer dominance in the different weight classes (and who that dominance was over), I give Jones the clear edge.

Resume - Hopkins has beaten Johnson, Tito, Tarver, Oscar, Jackson, Winky, Echols, Joppy, Eastman, Holmes, etc...as well as close decision losses to Taylor and Calzaghe (all three of which an arguement can be made for a Hopkins win...I personally had him 1-1-1 with a Win and a Draw vs Taylor and a close loss vs Calzaghe). Jones has beaten Toney, Hopkins, Tito, Mccallum, Woods, Tarver, Ruiz, Hill, Paz and Griffin. Hopkins has never been dominated though (contrary to the belief of some of the yahoos who posted on this thread...who obviously have never seen those fights)...Jones has. And tho I see that Jones resume is more top heavy (bigger names at the top of it)...I think its a give in that Hopkins is much more deep. This one I waver on...either close to Bernard...or a wash. Either way...their resumes are both extremely impressive and SEVERELY underrated by those trying to discredit each of them.

H2H - They both fought each other far before their primes. Both fighters were still perfecting their crafts. Both have admitted this on several occasions. Both after their fight also admitted that they were timid to engage for most of the fight...leading to a lackluster...CLEAR decision for Jones, who as people have eluded to, was the cleaner puncher, while Bernard throughout was the aggressor (imagine that!!! LOL!!!). I do not solely base my thoughts on this fight alone.

Yes, Jones did beat Hopkins...but if you look at the common opponents, Hopkins holds a large edge...with him beating both fighters who KO'd Jones...and even dominating and stopping a PRIME Tito, where as Jones won a clear UD against a faded, bloated version. Plus add in the fact that it was HOPKINS who Johnson creditted with giving him the gameplan to beat Jones after his win over him (also saying the Bernard was BY FAR the best fighter he has ever been in the ring with).

Ive always contended that because of Hopkins style (at his prime), he was the ONLY fighter of this era who could beat a PRIME RJJ! Too bad both of their egos didnt allow us to find out...

Anyway, I give Hopkins the edge here....again, if we are basing H2H solely on one fight, the Douglas is better than Tyson, Spinks is better than Holmes, Clubber Lang is better than Balboa...ya feel me?

So as I said, there is more to it. But even tho I give Hopkins the edge in more categories (if I do in resume..which again I feel is close)...I think the BIGGEST disparity is in the accomplishments. Where Bernard is tremendous in this area...he doesnt come close to matching what Jones did. Four times champion in four different weight classes....MW, SMW, LHW, HW!!! Beating Hopkins at MW for the title, Toney at SMW for the title, Mccallum for the LHW title and Ruiz for the HW title.

Again, I think its closer than most make it...but I still have Jones on the inside of the top 20 all time P4P...where as I have Hopkins on the outside of the top 30. And a win over Pavlik, tho would be absolutely phenominal (and I think it IS going to happen)...I dont think that will be enough to leap over Jones...even if he does lose to Calzaghe (who beat Hopkins already...so wouldnt count against Jones in this right).

Regardless...other than Pernell Whitaker, these two are my all time favorite fighters (Whitaker, Hopkins and Jones...IN THAT ORDER for my personal taste)...and I think its pretty much INaguable that they are the two best of this era.

:good