IF IRON MIKE WAS UP AND COMING NOW,WHAT WOULD YOUR THOUGHTS BE?

Awwww, gee. that's great!

Why do you think Douglas exposed Tyson in Tokyo? Not an excuse but Tyson hadn't been the same since Spinks. We all know why. And I do agree that we shouldn't excuse certain fighters for their losses. However, there were documented events leading up to the fight. Had Tyson taken Douglas seriously it's not certain he would've won, but he has a far greater chance at winning.

Douglas didn't really expose anything. I think the fight showed us that Tyson can take a good amount of damage for 10 rounds while still being dangerous. He's gone on record stating it was his best fight, knowing he could take punishment and go out on his shield.

What's your take on Holyfield's heart condition? Did it affect him against Moorer in '94? And what about Bowe in '95?

 

Well documented hahahaha, he was the HW champion of the world for Christ sake. Every little thing was documented, that doesn't mean it wasn't happening to his opponents.

If Tyson thinks the Douglas fight is his best then he's a better liar than me.......

 

I don't even know if Holyfield had a heart condition. Maybe it was an arm injury or shoulder. Heart condition seems unlikely in hindsight but who knows. Injuries are part of the game though. Maybe Moorer had injuries too which were less apparent but no less serious.

It's no excuse but 1994 Holyfield we're hardly talking about a young fighter, we're talking about a guy who's 10 years into a pro career and some very punishing fights. He'd been beaten into retirement once already by Bowe and barely got past him in a miraculous comeback effort in a rematch. He was considered an old fighter really, had a lot of miles on the clock.

But let's throw those facts aside anyway because they're not important. I say clearly: He lost the fight and still close enough to his prime to say it counts against him.
But, let's also acknowledge that was a very very close decision loss, so make of it what you will.
If Holyfield had been dominated and knocked out by Moorer that night I think he'd deserve to be rated a lot lower than he is. But he wasn't, it was extremely close fight.

I'm not saying Tyson was 100% for Douglas. I've said he was less than 100%. I think Douglas pretty much dominated him though. I think Tyson's condition was no less poor than some of the guys he's been given a ton of credit for dominating too, and I don't see why people are so unwilling to accept that. You call me a hater if I say Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tubbs were not 100%, so that's that. It's just how the boxing games goes.
It's boring having to repeat myself. My position is clear and simple. If a fighter gets dominated and knocked out in his youth and prime, as champ of the world, losing to a non-great fighter too, it will tend to take a lot of esteem off his overall ranking.
Hey, even a undefeated young champion Foreman getting punched up by Ali in 1974 smacks him down the rankings and "exposed" his weaknesses, so I'm not giving anyone a pass on that front.

 

See, I can easily turn this around and say you're giving Holyfield excuses for losing, facts thrown aside and all. But I'm not. Because like Tyson, they both lost and looked bad doing so. No excuses. Just the facts!

I've said this countless times before as well and I'll say it again, Tucker, Thomas and Tubbs, along with most Tyson opponents in the 80's/early 90's, whipped themselves into the best shape possible because they knew a young dynamo was on the scene imposing his will and taking scalps. People tend to look at Tubbs' weight in that fight as an issue but I've stated before he'd been accustomed to fighting at that weight and looked good. Maybe Tubbs felt losing those 3 extra pounds would've made him weaker, I don't know. But he looked awfully fast in those 2 rounds of action.

I can only base my opinion on how the fighter performs. Tucker looked good despite his hand issue. Maybe being cautious helped him more. He did throw that hand and had some success. And Thomas showed up for battle. He took Tyson's best shots and kept coming back for more. He was a bit past it but summoned up one last great effort to show Tyson it wasn't going to be that easy.

 

Tyson was in terrible shape for douglas. No power or snap in his punches compared to his fights beforehand lethargic from the start. Thats clear to see from the opening bell. Its a bit like saying it was the same douglas against holyfield when it clearly wasnt.

No ones excusing his performance but its stupid to say reasons for the performance are excuses. I still say most of the decent names tyson beat...would have beaten him that night. Looked in bad shape physically as well as mentally.

 

Tyson looked in bad shape? You're talking out of your backside pal.

 

That's fine. Okay, so let's stretch things to the point where Holyfield's (very close) loss to Moorer is as bad as Tyson's to Douglas ? You seem to believe that. Okay. What's the conclusion ?
If I'm convinced of that I'd just penalize Holyfield and downgrade him even more for it.
It doesn't do anything for Tyson though.

I suppose we can go through the rest of the historically ranked heavyweights and maybe Ali's loss to Leon Spinks is the same as Douglas-Tyson well.
In that case, I'd downgrade him too.
And Joe Louis losing to Ezzard Charles.
If we do this enough, Tyson becomes relatively greater, yes, I get that.

Okay, you've convinced me.
Tony Tucker's (alleged) bad hand was no disadvantage, and possibly an advantage.
Tony Tubbs was as good as ever and in good enough shape, despite his trainer telling a different story.
Pinklon Thomas put up "one last great effort", and was 100% best possible shape, despite him and his trainer telling a different story.

And Mike Tyson was in terrible shape for Douglas, badly effected. All the stories surrounding bad preparation for him are true and meaningful.

Ok. Mike Tyson is now in my top 3. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

Wass your the forum idiot. Go and watch the fight...you could tell from the very start. The snap in the punches wasnt there the speed wasnt there. It was laboured stuff from tyson. And douglas knew it from as early as the first round. He actually started to bully tyson from there and didnt really let up all night.

Tyson basically assaulted that whole division. Looked like he couldnt assault michael douglas let alone buster douglas that night. Fair play to douglas he capatalised on it...but he would have went the same way as everyone else if it was a year earlier.

 

None of it makes any difference to me, if I'm honest. It's all becoming a bit too groundhog day for me.

*I kind of figured it would make sense to rank fighters on their wins and losses in their primes, who they beat, who they lost to, the quality of the opposition and the manner in which they performed in significant wins and losses.

*I also thought it would make sense to make some allowances for aged and old fighters and grade their losses as less damaging as they enter the definite past-prime stages, while being more judgemental towards results and performances fighters suffer or make in their primes.

I did think this was all very logical and reasonable.


But very few people seem to agree with it and I really don't find any of it remotely important enough to argue about any more. I'll defer to the opinion of the majority from now on when it comes to judging and ranking because it's tiring having to explain my very straightforward opinions and assessments over and over. Boring as hell, and I'm surprised certain posters are still questioning me on it, since I can't imagine it being interesting really.
From time to time it has been good debating this stuff but those times have passed, honestly.

 

LMFAO!!! Dude, take a hit. You're projecting way too much.

 

You're the clown that just stated Tyson looked in poor physical condition.......

 

"But the Tyson he fought in Tokyo was a stranger to anybody who had followed the champions career.He fought as if his mind was elsewhere ,and his torso looked unusually fleshy and less than well prepared ".
Reg Gutteridge " Mike Tyson The Release Of Power".

 

I don't need to listen to old Reg pal I can see just fine with my own eyes, I suggest you do the same. The fight is plastered all over the internet thingy.......

 

Good find hahahahaha, so now you're saying Tyson looked out of shape for the fight? Gets better this does......