If it is true that Evander uses PEDs, then he has no heart. Not in the way you think

...What is your point?

 

That's one way of looking at it.

I think boxing is full of fighters having severe advantages over others, whether "fair" or "unfair".
Gross mismatches are commonplace in boxing, and that's more of a concern to me, than whether Holyfield was on drugs and Tyson wasn't, or whatever.

If a guy with severe adavantages in speed, power, strength, aggression, fitness, resilience etc. is being fed some fourth-rate part-timer to fatten up his record that's bad, regardless of whether there is PEDs involved. And that goes for cases in which the lesser fighter is the one who's juicing too !

 

The bottom line is its cheating. A fighter, especially on the level of an Evander Holyfield and Manny P, will have an advantage over a comparably equipped athelete, both in his ability to give and take punishment. If Evander Holyfield was found to be, and admitted to, using PED's during the good part of his heavyweight reign, then yes, it definitely affects his legacy in my opinion. Same goes for Manny P, because chances are because of their size, they would not have accomplished as much at the higher weights.
I dont see how anyone can dispute that or even think that the majority of fighters do in fact use PED's. I dont believe that to be the case, because even with lax standards and testing, more cases of use would be known and really the most notable cases of use are with fighters moving up in weight, Mosley, Holyfield, Toney and the allegations against Manny P.

 

But how is it different ?
If you're really only concerned about the damage he could inflict and your inability to hurt him, why does it matter whether he's that way naturally or with a bit of help from drugs ?
It's still the same proposition in front of you - a fighter that's devastatingly good.

 

Let's compare that 1987 Holy from Qawi II to himself from Tyson II in 1997...

Weight in Qawi II: 187lbs
Weight in Tyson II: 218lbs
Difference: 31lbs of ultra-ripped muscle mass. :yep

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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7f_qjTl1fE[/ame]

 

Yes, it's against the rules, so it's cheating.

I suspect many elite fighters use PEDs, and the lack of proper testing allows for that.
Even in sports that have had strict and rigourous testing for years, and highly publicized controls and campaigns of anti-doping, there have been uncovered massive operations of systematic doping. Athletics, for example.
It is probably correct to assume that not everyone gets caught eventually. Many will go to their grave assumed to be legit.

In a sport like boxing, with ridiculously lax controls, the known cases (including the rumour mill accusations, and personal confessions) perhaps represent only the tip of the iceberg.
It's purely idealist to think that the vast majority of boxers wouldn't be interested in using PEDs, knowing that they 99% wont get caught.

 

..... in ten years. Not a good argument.

You'd be better arguing from the fact that he put on 20 pounds between the April 1988 DeLeon fight (190) and the December battle with Pinklon Thomas (210) :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8xLdqun9Ys[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvJiIVzImDQ[/ame]


..... but I dont think his physique changed an awful lot in a short time. He fluttered around 205 - 212 for a few years. He put on muscle, that's no secret, he lifted weights, and, yes, he probably used PEDs, but the weight gain in itself doesn't prove anything. For a guy who's 6'2 and 190 to put on 15-20 pounds in 8 months with hard heavy training is not incredible. It can be done naturally.

 

As I said though, the majority of suspected cases have been in fighters that have moved up quite a bit in weight. I do think the drugs associated with adding muscle and size also help a fighters ability to give and receive punches as compared to drugs used to cut weight. As lax as boxing rules are, so are boxers and trainers themselves, so I believe more and more cases would be known or alleged.

 

Not simple enough for you?

 

That's bad too, sure.

A difference is that at least the lesser boxer knows or has a fair opportunity to know the risk. PEDs, removed stuffing, plaster... these are insidious ways to gain an advantage.

If I climb into the ring with Godzilla, that is in the end, my responsibility. I see the size, I see the fire coming out of his nostrils.

 

Agreed. Not to mention the fact that PEDs can get awfully expensive and most boxers are ham-and-eggers.

 

Any fighter has the right to know what he is up against. Is it a man or is it a man who is using banned substances to enhance his ability to hurt you?

Whether it is a natural man, or a man "with a bit of help from drugs" or a man with the stuffing removed from his glove, I have the right to know before I take the risk of stepping into the ring.

This is without even getting into the reason as to why certain things are and must be banned in boxing...!

 

No, it wasn't.

 

Why?

Was Bob Hazelton, one of the 'cans that Foreman knocked out, one PEDs? You'd probably doubt it, but he was. PEDs don't magically add boxing ability. Journeymen could be on them for sure. Even conditionally-wise it's no guarantee for success - would you think James Toney was on them?


By the way, what do you think of James Toney?

Like Unforgiven asked you: If the reason is that you'd like to know that he doesn't hit harder or recover better, why does it matter if it's naturally or just because he's a talented, well trained ****er? To put it in your words, all you want to do is to "Recalibrate the risks". The risks don't care if he's on PEDs or not.

What if the guy twice his size might be wearing brass knuckles as well, though? Because that's the situation Holyfield is in: many of his opponents may have been on the gear.



I don't condone steroid use. But the way it's barely being tested, it wouldn't be fair to single out one fighter and give him all the blame while others may be just as guilty, but simply got lucky in not getting caught.

 

Steroids are more typically used by those who want to add weight, strength and size. In the case of the fighters we are speaking about its pretty clear that fighters like Mosley Manny P and even Holyfield would have used PED's so they could maintain enough size to compete at the higher weights. We know that Manny P has to work very hard to maintain 140 plus pounds before a fight. They also have the other advantages that I believe to be a real part of these drugs in that they enhance the fighters chin and ability to absorb punishment.
Sure steroids would even enhance a journeyman that was knocked out by an elite fighter in someway, but that doesnt really have an validity to this arguement, because when two elite fighters are facing each other, one would have an unfair advantage and thats what we are specifically talking about here. In the case of Holyfield he had elite skills, but maybe he couldnt maintain the size or strength to consistently compete with the elite heavies?