If it was an american with Joes record ??

the defend the quote you quoting...I always myself thought Pavlik was a bit hyped up...

a bit...its like Hopkins said...in his record he saw 3 NAMES!...:rofl :huh

i still questioned MANY things about him...i still dont think hopkins EXPOSED him either the way many people believe...the guy fought with Bronchitis and at a heavier weight class...:bart

but in his own division he was pretty dominant...but still too early to call him the middleweight king...i mean i just couldnt settle on the fact that he was killing people with the same double jab right cross combo that seems pretty lame...i think if anything...hopkins laid out a blue print on how to beat Pavlik but certainly didnt EXPOSE him

 

no joke...damn snooze fest!

but its his style that makes it boring...but his style is what makes him effective...so its kinda something you gotta live with if you're gonna call yourself a B-Hop fan

 

"... and you must be crying out for a big white hope now that pavlik has hit the buffers."

KP's star did take a hit by losing so comprehensively. But, he's young enough to recover. Really. I'm not ready to write him off at all.


"... it was hopkins who made the calzaghe fight ugly ... a plan for calzaghe which involved reducing his space. ... So you have to give some credit to hopkins for the right tactic and trying to steal the fight."


I don't know. I'm not convinced that Hop believed he would need to employ a spoiling tactic. I think it more likely he underestimated Joe somewhat and uncharacteristically found himself exhausted late in the fight (Joe fans will attribute that to Joe's pace or activity while a Hop fan will wonder if he just finally had an off-performance which could be due to so many things that we can't possibly identify with any certainty (e.g., didn't sleep well, did one too many interviews, whatever .. just felt old and inconsistency begins to appear as you age)).


"But you have to look at this both ways, why didn't the best Americans come over and fight our fighters in the 90s? Benn, Collins, Eubank, Watson, Calzaghe"

My guess would be that there wasn't a reason they found compelling. I don't believe there was any MORE money to go there then (like there could be today - well not today, in this frickin' financial nightmare but I digress). I imagine all athletes have seen enough examples of home cooking (Roy losing in the Olympics after landed nearly every punch he threw and never getting touched return) that they would not be interested in entering such a situation unless there was no alternative (or enough of a financial incentive). Also, generally, the "European" fighters that have come over and plied their trade in the US haven't accomplished all that much to acquire a significant reputation. [Conversely, the Americans that went over there like Brewer or Mitchell weren't exactly considered anywhere near the best.] So, in the 90s (in particular - though it is still the case to a great extent even today), I would find it doubtful that the Toney's, Hopkins', Jones', etc. would have felt any need to defeat the best in Europe to convince themselves of their prowess. On the contrary, they were following after guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, SRL, TH, MH, etc. They wouldn't have expected greatness to be anywhere but right here in the USA. James Toney is reknowned over here for fighting all-comers in years and years of gym wars. Apparently, a fight wasn't or couldn't be made with Europe's best - but it would be absurd to believe he wouldn't have fought Eubank and/or Benn to prove his superiority if they had flown into any gym he was training at.

"... and as much as people over in the US demand our fighters come over to face their best in the US.
Why shouldnt we see the same over here?"

Well, the world is becoming comparatively smaller than even ten years ago so I think you will be seeing a more balanced situation all the way around albeit gradually.

 

I was merely pointing out that being perceived as having a boring style as such (I don't agree btw) means that you cannot be classed as an ATG. Give me ring smarts over slappy work rate any day of the week.

 

thats a lot of bull**** talk coming from someone who isnt his manager...

Dawson and Froch would give the guy a helluva hard time...more so Dawson (but to be honest i havent kept up much with Froch so i couldnt really say if he could or couldnt in his case)

Calzaghe does really well against slow robotic heavy hitters, which is what Eubank, Kessler, Lacy are...one dimensial home-run hitters...you put him in with someone who can take away/match his only weapon (speed and workrate)...then you see a very exposed Calzaghe...

i think if he were to fight Dawson and beat him convincingly...i will VOW HERE ON THIS THREAD...that i will give my due credit to Calzaghe...until then...he beat overhyped one dimensial fighters as his highlights and a VERY old man leaving question marks on his legacy

 

both Joe and Money May get the same shitty respect in my book...

both are paper champs...

the only difference is that Mayweather in my book ACTUALLY HAS TALENT...

 

If you WBO, WBC, WBA, IBF and Ring title (in 2 weights) how are you a paper champ...?

 

Is their any moderator out there that can ban this noob...?

 

If he was American & as good as he is, he would've been tested. He would've been seen on tv a handfull of times and he would've faced some good competition. He most likely wouldnt be undefeated

 

Can I ask how you rank Dawson and Hopkins in P4P terms at the current time?

 

tell em

 

actually...yes you do...he has AMAZING workrate...ill give him that...

and thats the thing that gave him the edge over Hopkins in the fight place...his workrate...otherwise...he was getting worked the first half of the fight...

but you're clearly a biased nut hugging JC fan...so suck away...suck them nuts dry...you still aint provin nothing about his Lack of Opposition

his division was dry of competition during his hay day...so i dont blame him for not really fighting the best...but now that there is starting to be some talent...he wants to go out by fighting a past-it RJJ??!! :bart

 

What are you talking about, who wouldve you tested him against who are better than the guys he already beat...?

Dont forget the super middlweight belts have not been US hands for the mjority of Calzaghes reign, the reason Calzaghe didnt unify earlier was because Ottke and Beyer wouldnt fight him.

Although he was tested against good comp, Brewer, Mitchell, prime Reid, Sheika the only time another champ fancied his chance with Calzaghe was when Lacy came along. Lacy was the best and most talked about US super middle since the 90s. Just because Joe made the undefeated IBF champ, for olympian and favourite going in look like a punch bag, shouldnt take the credit away from Joe.

You cant win all four major titles and not be tested, its ridiculous.

 

ill put Hopkins at 5 possibly 4

and Dawson still needs a good win over a superstar to put him on the list...he's still untested...he's got the talent...but still untested...

im assuming your talking about a top 10? cuz otherwise...****...idk where i'd put him