If Jack Dempsey was fighting Harry Wills tomorrow...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Sep 16, 2007.


  1. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,734
    3,580
    Jul 10, 2005
    Note: Jack Dempsey suffered a one-round defeat to former title challenger Jim Flynn but I did not use that argument as it was almost certainly a fixed fight.

    Tuesday, Bloody Tuesday: The Day Jack Dempsey Became Champion Of The World

    It was a terribly hot day when the crowds packed the stadium to see Jess Willard defend his title for the first time in three years. The champion was physically imposing but woefully lacking in talent. To this day he does not stand out as the best 'Great White Hope' of his day but only as the most resilient and tough - the only one who could out-last the hated, black champion Jack Johnson in a 45 round fight. Willard won the title in 1915, and defended on one measly occasion. Willard's defense of the world crown against Frank Moran was the equivalent of waiting until you are dealt a royal flush before betting in poker as Moran had no chance of knocking out big Jess and if the fight went the distance (which it did) it would be declared a no-decision. Willard was a nice enough man, but not a great fighter by any standards, had not fought in three years and was 39 years old. Willard was a huge man, and so at first glance, scoring seven knockdowns in one round against him seems incredible until one looks over the rules of the day. In those days, men stood over their fallen opponent and could hit them the instant they rose from the canvass, even if they still lay in a vulnerable position. Such was the tactic Jack Dempsey used against the rusty and aging colossus. In figurative terms, he woke the sleeping giant and proceeded to kick him in the balls before he even got up. This would be like Holyfield knocking out Bowe in 2000 if Bowe had never had any skills in the first place. One must also watch the film (there are many available, I have three copies from various sources myself) to see Willard carry his left hand by his waist and throw crude counters to keep off the challenger. This clearly lessens the achievement of knocking out Jess Willard.

    A Dandy And A Destroyer: Jack Dempsey as the Champion in the Roaring Twenties

    Dempsey's first defense of the title must come as one of boxing biggest disgraces of the times. The gross mismatch against Billy Miske was a disgusting exhibition that stands out as a blight on the credibility of the sport (ah for the days when boxing had credibility) in the 1920s. Miske was suffering from Bright's Disease and although not totally shot, was certainly no longer a threat due to high-activity and the disease that ravaged his kidneys.

    One thousand dollars! One thousand dollars! It just doesn't have much of a ring to it anymore. At least not since 2 July 1921. That was the day that Jack Dempsey and Tex Rickard carried boxing through to a new era. An era in which anything with less than five zeroes simply wasn't enough. Almost exactly two years after Dempsey's title winning victory over Jess Willard in 1919, Dempsey defended for the third time (he had scored a come-from-behind KO of Billy Brennan). Rising in weight, 175 pound king Georges Carpentier challenged Dempsey. Carpentier was a talented boxer, and Dempsey was not huge for a heavyweight, but the fact that Georges still scaled almost three pounds under the light-heavyweight limit for this fight brings to mind the old phrase ''A good big guy always beat a good little guy''. This was very true here. The bigger and stronger champion simply overwhelmed the smaller champion. Basically, it was a case of the 'Manassa Mauler' vs. the 'Manassa Smaller' as Dempsey outweighed Carpentier by between 15 and 20 pounds (I have been unable to find a reliable source that gives Dempsey's weight, but Carpentier was 172½ lbs). All those who have seen the fight must surely see Carpentier's left hand at his side (just like Willard) as he tried to keep off the champion with several wild punches a couple of which appeared to stun the heavyweight champion in the first round. Still, the low left hand and big weight advantage for the champion were too much for Carpentier. His face was badly marked by the end of the first and he was floored twice in the fourth, the last time for the count. Beating a smaller man who carries his hands by his sides (at time Carpentier's right hand would join his left at his waist) while still getting stunned is hardly impressive. Why was this ignored? Simple, read any report of the fight and you will hear little of the action itself, only of the fact that the fight was boxing's first million-dollar gate.

    Dempsey next defended his title on 4 July 1923 (exactly four years after he won the title from Jess Willard) against Tommy Gibbons. Again, fight reports record only the disaster that was Jack Dempsey-Tommy Gibbons (the fight nearly bankrupted the town of Shelby Montana where the fight was staged). Gibbons was a very fast and talented boxer but had competed in the professional ranks for the last 12 years and was 34 by fight time. Gibbons clinched his way through most of the fight and neglected his jab in many rounds. Dempsey supporters will try to try to counter me by saying that Gibbons was very fast, but again, this is coming from those who worship Dempsey for his speed. Gibbons was also giving away 15 pounds in weight. So, it all adds up to Dempsey winning a 15 round decision over a much smaller man who made him look dreadful despite being 34 years old.

    His last three fights having come against smaller men, the champion signed to fight Luis Angel Firpo. Nick-named the 'Wild Bull of the Pampas', Firpo weighed over 220 lbs and was strong. However, one must not get the impression that Firpo was Jimmy Wilde but twice his size. Every time I watch the fight I must grimace in displeasure. I have always loved watching the master boxers of the ring (I regularly found Pernell Whitaker's fights very enjoyable), and watching the sickeningly crude Firpo is just one of those things that I am compelled to endure. Carrying his left hand by his side (sound familiar?), Firpo clubbed away with right hands that would make Butterbean look like Willie Pep. Dempsey simply swarmed from the start and took advantage of the rules of the time by hitting his opponent the moment he rose from the canvass (something else that sounds familiar). But still, Firpo gave the champion a licking with one punch, then punched him out of the ring. Dempsey was helped up again by the ringside reporters and hung on for dear life until the bell saved him from a further beating. Dempsey recovered quickly and knocked out Firpo in the second round.

    The fight with Firpo was the last successful defense of his world crown. In total it added up to beating a badly sick man, two smaller men one of whom was past his prime, a come-from-behind KO of Billy Brennan (Not mentioned above) and the defeat of one of history's crudest fighters. In these five defenses of the title, Dempsey was hurt in two of them, made to look very unskilled in two others and look impressive in one (against Billy Miske). Dempsey's 'brutal and dominant' title reign is merely a collection of victories over tainted opposition and the champion still failed to impress.


    Jack's Run Ended By A Runner: Gene Tunney Wrests The Title From Dempsey

    An exciting if unimpressive title reign on 23 September 1926. Making his first defense in over three years, Dempsey was easily *********. One can blame it on age, but Tunney had little trouble taking the crown as his use of the jab caught the champion coming in, and enabled the former American Light-Heavyweight Champion to soar ahead on points. Of course, Dempsey was not as young anymore, but the weight advantage (not the first time he had fought a smaller man) should have helped to offset that a little. It did not. Tunney himself, was not wonderfully young either, and would have just two more fights before retiring and had had five grueling wars with Harry Greb.
     
  2. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,734
    3,580
    Jul 10, 2005
    The Battle Of The Long Count: Boxing History's Most Groundless Controversy

    It has long been argued that Jack Dempsey beat Gene Tunney on 22 September 1927 (almost exactly one year after the first fight). This argument is in a word: Rubbish! Dempsey himself claimed that he did not agree with the notion that his foul tactics had cost him victory. Tunney does appear dazed at first but can clearly be seen to be ready for action before ten seconds (official or not) had elapsed. This was almost exactly like Tyson's knockdown of James 'Buster' Douglas. But Jack Kearns (Dempsey's manager) made no attempt to reverse the decision as he was no longer working with 'Manassa Jack'. So that leaves us with what? Nine rounds of beating in which Dempsey got caught by jabs and right hands coming in and was even knocked down and badly hurt in the eighth round. You can say that Dempsey's reflexes were shot, but his chin certainly was not, and this former light heavyweight beat him up.

    The Aftermath

    Dempsey did little in the ring after the second Tunney fight. It was his last fight of note. And so his credentials in the early days were failing to get the better of Willie Meehan, beating Fred Fulton who's only claim to fame was beating the tiny marvel Sam Langford. His credentials in the championship days were looking bad against three skilled boxers, beating up on two crude giants, knocking over a sick opponent and a partridge in a pear tree. So there you have it. His legacy was his huge service to the popularity of the sport, but that is nothing to create a legend out of. He took advantage of the lack of neutral corner rules, beat either small men who carried their hands at their sides, or big men with skills that would embarrass Mia St. John. Smaller men and bigger men stunned him and his 'brilliant defense' was just ceasing his forward momentum when fighters threw shots back at him. A fellow boxing enthusiast that I know claimed that Dempsey was regarded as the definite pound-for-pound greatest fighter ever by all those who saw him. And that is just it. We thought the same of Tyson until a certain cruiserweight made us look twice. People saw him and got caught up in the atmosphere of it all, and ignored the major flaws that Dempsey possessed. He fails to make my all-time heavyweight top ten, as all those that did held their hands just a little above the waist. And if light-heavyweights could stun him, think what Louis, Johnson, Marcianno, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Fitzsimmons and any other hard hitting heavyweight would have done.
     
  3. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,674
    2,172
    Aug 26, 2004
    Dempsey was the 1st explosive Heavyweight Champ with speed and killer instinct, I think he would KO Wills but not without some trouble, once he got inside, Harry would be in trouble