If Jack Johnson had never been born?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Jun 29, 2025.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Then who would have been the first black heavyweight champion?

    This is an interesting question in my eyes.

    Think about who the potential challengers would have been, but also when the monetary offers would have been realistic.
     
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  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Langford was already KO'ing guys like Fireman Jim Flynn, beating Jeanette and Ferguson and Ketchell in that 1908-10 window. Burns had the balls to face Johnson. At some point, perhaps a couple years later, there would be sufficient pressure for him to face Langford and he would oblige.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The salient question, is could Langford's backers come up with the money?

    He didn't have the kind of money behind him that Johnson did, for a few more years, and neither did McVea.
     
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    What did they have to put up for the Iron Hague fight, I wonder.

    But with no Johnson, and Sam's incredible record, perhaps he would have had more money behind him.
     
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  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    If Burns insists on the money that he got for cashing out against Johnson, then I don't see it materializing soon.

    By the time that it does, Burns might be out of the picture.
     
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  6. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Peter Jackson was already the first black lineal Heavyweight champion in my book and at a minimum the first black titlist.

    But ignoring that Langford won his belt 6 months later in our timeline. It is unlikely Tommy Burns would deny his countryman a shot if he gave one to Jack Johnson.

    It is possible the butterfly effect of Johnson not being Harts opponent for the eliminator in 1905 makes it so Burns isn't champ at this juncture but either way Langford should end up as the lineal champ at some point in the early 1910s with no Jack Johnson around. The white heavyweight ranks were a barren wasteland in the early 1910s until 1914 or 1915 there was a very long window where it would have been incredibly difficult for the lineal champ whoever it was to deny him.
     
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  7. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 MONZON VS HAGLER 2025 banned Full Member

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    Langford is also a better “coloured” guy for the times, good manners and “inoffensive” if he did become the champ the people would wind up loving him, he’d draw the colour line too but he’d make a zillion dollars and be a beloved fighter like Robinson and Louis after him.
     
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  8. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The thing about the early 1910s is they were the only time in the "colored title" era when the top black HWs(lets say top 5) were clearly better as a group than the white ones. Langford was allowed to fight Jeanette for the IBU title because Jeanette had held his own in his series with Langford. And in December 1913 4 black men were fighting for white recognized world HW titles within 24 hours. The NSCs decision to strip Langford forever relegated their belts(like Commonwealth) behind American and Euro ones even if they didn't know it.

    Via technicality when Jack Johnson fought Jim Johnson he was fighting the highest ranked black HW he hadn't already beaten. With Langford this was a stupid excuse but with Jeanette and McVea this was fairly reasonable. Wills was the first top black HW Johnson hadn't beaten and then avoided and did so for a fairly small window. Langford was 1-1-2 against Jeanette when he would have taken over and had never fought McVea. He would not have had that excuse.

    Now the difference is would Langford have had the absurd number of rematches he did with black(and some white)HWs if he was lineal champ from 1909? And the answer to that is probably no. He might have fought them as seldom as once or once more each. Which would have put his longevity records at risk. In our timeline Langford fought over 10x more than Johnson during Johnsons reign post 1909 and no matter how much more active as lineal champ Langford was its hard to see him living up to that with the number of top HWs there were. Johnsons was inactive but if he'd fought 8 or 9 times in the early 1910s instead of 4 thats probably what an active champions reign during that period looks like. In our timeline between Johnson v Jeffries and Johnson v Moran, Langford fought 40 times.

    Unlike Johnson Langford could have kept it going to 1917 boxing wise and WWI could have kept him champ another year or two. But during the title freeze any additional reign would have come with no fights.
     
  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I was thinking that, too. He was definitely the "aw-shucks" sort of humble guy. Of course, beneath that he was stone cold assassin.
     
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  10. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 MONZON VS HAGLER 2025 banned Full Member

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    A Robinson type talent of his time, I see him gaining mass appeal, well dressed “aw-shucks” (Gene Fullmer was popular for this) and he was a man of culture friends with Picasso, rubbing shoulders with the gentry and what not, he could’ve been the most famous black athlete of his day but I’m glad we got Louis.
     
  11. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Clay Moyle, who used to hang out around here, wrote an excellent book on Sam. Highly recommended.

    I talk S about a lot self appointed boxing historians but Clay is one of the good ones. Really good book on Miske, too.

    Cheers!
     
  12. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 MONZON VS HAGLER 2025 banned Full Member

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    Love that book, love his work, love me some Miske.
     
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  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    On top of his obvious abilities, Johnson’s tenacity and valid/outspoken self promotion also helped to secure his eventual title shot.

    You had to be exactly Johnson, not just the fighter, but also the man (read: his own man), to secure a chance at the title in the same time frame (relative to his career and era) as Johnson did.

    Of course Langford had the ability but it seems he was also perhaps somewhat self subordinated.

    Not at all a genuine embargo imo, but Langford and his manager Joe Woodman did put out that advert challenging any man BUT Jeffries.

    Sam would’ve fought Jeffries in a heat beat IF given the chance imo - but quite obviously there was never going to be a chance, so why not cut your losses and show “due” respect toward the venerated White Champ at the same time in order to score some brownie points?

    Notably, Sam also picked Jeffries to beat Johnson in 1910 - I’m sure Sam knew better than that but again, he was saying what he knew white folks wanted to hear, imo.

    I’m not ragging on Sam for any of that at all - rather, it’s to highlight how and why Johnson himself was the first to literally break down the long held barrier between black fighters and the HW Title.

    In all possibility it might’ve been Burns (a key and must player himself for the materialisation of the first White vs Black Title Fight in 1908) who eventually granted a chance to Langford circa ‘10/‘11. Burns, after all, made it clear that he barred no fighter - unlike Jeffries.

    However, without Johnson on the scene, Langford might’ve been forced to do his own chasing just as Johnson was forced to do - Tommy only relenting when the $$$ was sufficient to see him off into retirement - again, just as the case was when he Burns fought Johnson - $30,000? to Tommy and just $5000? to Jack IIRC.

    If another white guy bested Burns to take the Title prior to a potential fight vs Langford, said fighter might’ve locked down again and barred black challengers just as Jeffries did.
     
  14. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If not Johnson, then either Langford or Jeannette. If not them, then Wills.
     
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  15. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Jeffries retires in 1905 and likely has no ambition of returning. As a result, his legacy is saved.

    Langford would get the title at some point, likely reign until the mid 1910s though I could also see him dropping it to McVea or Jeannette at some points in between.
     
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