If Jeffries did Knockout Frank Childs and Denver Ed Martin......perhaps he deserves

Well, I rank Jeffries very high and I don´t think these would justify ranking him above Marciano, Louis or Ali but it would strengthen his standing alongside Johnson, Lewis and Holmes. But I only read this on here, so I don´t know if this is true. At cbz those two are mentioned as unconfirmed so I think there is no prove at the moment for them.

 

I'd rank them:

1. Jackson
2: Griffin
3A. Denver Ed Martin
3B. Armstrong
4. Childs

Of the five fighters, only Jackson and Griffin are viewed as elite.

I do not think Denver Ed Martin was special. He was a string bean type of fighter who could not take it to the head or body.

Childs better than Burns? I highly doubt that. That is a reach.

 

I dont for a moment believe that Jeffries defeated them. I have no doubt he would have as Childs was too small for him and Martin was made for Jeffries style-wise. Ed didn't like it to the body. Martin and Childs did not become well known as a result of boxing historians revisionalism, they were top men of their time and if Jeffries defeated them, it would have been ballyhooed to boost the young prospect fame.
And I dont think it is a given that Burns was inferior to Childs. Wins over O'Brien, Flynn and Hart stack up well against anything Childs did. Remember Creedon schooled an admittedly fairly green Childs and George Byers also did the trick. Armstrong was very in-and-out and Hank Griffin's record, aside from the Johnson triology was fairly pedestrian. These guys were good but only at about the same level as the top white contenders.IMO.

 

Jackson at his best was different class but definitely shot long before he met Jeff. Denver Ed to me was the best of the rest but Armstrong had several close set-to's with him. Martin beat Sam Langford? did someone mean the McVey win?

 

Could you enlighten me on this bit?

 

The business of Jeffries beating Childs comes from the San Francisco Chronicle, May 22, 1896, page 9. It is not a fight report but a profile of Jeffries in which Jeffries is seen as a coming champ. He had not yet fought Dan Long. Subsequent research revealed that this article was written by Ben Benjamin.

Included were these comments on his resume:

"Jeffries has fought not a few men, and has won every battle he has had though some antagonists had nothing better than local reputations at most."

"Jeffries has bested his opponents in short order. Two rounds, three rounds, five rounds is the history of his fights. He put George Griffin out in eleven seconds. Frank Childs, the 'colored cyclone' of Los Angeles went out in two rounds, and Childs had bested LaBlanche and 'Billy" Smith. It took the young giant the same length of time of put out Joe Cotton."

This article at least did ballyhoo the Childs fight, but the fight was never mentioned again when discussing Jeffries as far as I know and was not listed on his official record later printed in the Chronicle.

Everyone will have to judge for themselves what to make of this.


I have personally never come across any report or even implication that Jeffries ever fought Martin from a primary source. Given Martin's age, this fight would almost certainly have had to have occurred while Jeff was champion. Bob Armstrong, who lost to Jeffries, did knock out Martin in 1899 and 1903.

 

I printed the source for Childs in the previous post.

I think Jeff's wins over Jackson, Armstrong, and Griffin do move him above most of the white heavyweights prior to Marciano as far as fighting and defeating black heavyweights is concerned. Only Jack Sharkey might be on par. Martin would have been a good win, but Armstrong seems to have been at least on par with Martin, knocking him out twice.

 

The following reports give you an idea of Martin's weakness to an agressive, durable fighter/puncher. A fight with Jeff would resemble the Jeffries-Ruhlin title contest, most probably.

Los Angeles. Sept. 17-Sam McVey,
the big colored roan from Oxnard made
short work of Denver Ed Martin at
Hazard's pavilion.Martin was knocked
out in the first round.
McVey forced the pace from the beginning
and kept Martin stepping lively.
Martin was the first to lead, using
a left hook. which McVey cleverly got
under. McVey missed two attempts
with his right hand for the jaw and
took a straight left from Martin on the
face, which was the only clean blow
that Martin landed.
McVey forced Martin to the ropes
and at close quarters sent in a powerful
short arm jolt over the heart. Martin
unwisely attempted to mix it with
McVey and got another right arm joit
in the stomach.
He slipped to his knee, but was up
immediately and after McVey....

July 14.(1903)
Bob Armstrong the Victor.
Boston, June 10—Bob Armstrong of
New York, put out Denver Ed Martin
with a left-handed stomach punch in
the third round of a scheduled 12-round
bout before the Tammany Club, tonight'
The event was announced to be
for the colored heavyweight championship
of the world. Armstrong outclassed
his opponent.
Feb 7, 1903(v Johnson)

and waded into Martin, landing oeverul
terrible swings and uppercuts.
Near the close of the round Johnson
penned Martin in a neutral corner und
landed a right swing on the neck and
sent the Denver colored man under the
ropes very groggy. Martin took a nine
count, then raised up and fell again
with weakness. He repeated this ploy
three times until the gong ended tne
round. He recuperated during the rest.
and from then on succeeded In keeping
away from the aggressive Johnson.
Both were fighting strong at the finish
but the decision was very popular

 

Martin was probably only(!) 6-4. He was reported as such and generally when there are conflicting claims on height, naturally the lower one tends to be the more accurate. Furthermore Ed looks about 6-4 in the photos i have seen of him.
Maher beat a slew of black contenders, Godfrey, CC Smith, Klondike, Butler,Craig etc while Choynski beat Wilson, Godfrey, Woods and one Jack Johnson. But most white contenders for the most part wanted no part of the better black contenders.

 

Griffin ahead of Martin is a bit of a reach.

For whatewver it is worth neither Griffin nor Armstrong was regarded as being in Martins class at the time.

 

Martin comes across as one of those defensive fighters with poor durability who could beat or loose to any of his peers on a given day.

He was a verry good defensive boxer, perhaps second only to Jack Johnson in this regard for the era. He probably had the best footwork of all the top heavyweights of the period. Only Johnson ever beat him on the scorecards.

If he had fought guys like Tom Sharkey and Gus Rhulin he would have handily outboxed them but could potentialy have been taken out.

I think that he would probably have outboxed Jeffries right up to the point where Jeffries caught up with him.