If Jeffries Fought Rocky 3 times 15rds ,Would He Win 1,2,3? "

Mcvey,

Stop making excuses. Jeffries who was washed up and had not fought in 5 years did cut Johnson fair in square. He also hurt him with a body punch in round 11. News papers report this, and they were there. We have been over this many times before. Stop being bigoted about it.


Back to this thread... Jimmy Cannon said Rocky stood out like a rose in a garbage dump, meaning his competition wasn't very good. Could anyone imagine Jeffries taking a guy like Cockell many rounds ( 9 ) , and hitting him with low blows to slow him down?


Rocky did the same thing in his re-match with LaStarza. LaStarza was in the lead until round six. Rocky hit LaStarza with a mean hook on the break ( his most damaging punch of the fight ) and also low blowed him to slow him down. Then the tides turned in Marciano's favor. Its on film to see. You could see why many felt LaStarza won the first match.

In terms of records of opposition, Marciano fought far more fighters with losing records in comparison to Jeffries. Marciano was stunned, floored or hurt by cruiser weight sized guys who did not hit as hard as Jeffries. Even vs. light hitting types in Ted Lowry! Read up, its there. Jeffries known record has very little fat on it. He was moved quickly, and his KO% in title fights was very good.

 

I actually see many similarities betweem the two men's records ... both were young men earning their biggest wins over older , former champs past their best .. pre-title Jeffries had tought opposition with Choynski and Sharkey and Rocky did with the badly faded Louis and a semi-decent Layne .. in many ways they are pretty even ..

 

Picking Marciano over Jeffries goes against many decades of boxing thought. Marciano can only be compared to Jeffries, Louis, Dempsey in terms of punching power. All three were far greater fighters than the Rock. Amazing the amount of revisionism that goes on in these forums.

 

Also....Fleisher was at ringside when Jeffries fought Johnson in 1910. Nat rated Johnson No1 and Jeffries No 2 all time. Rocky came in at No 10.

 

He was ringside for a shot Jeffries' worst career performance and judges his greatness from that? And a 22 year old Fleisher's judgement is to be trusted as granite truth? And we are to believe he can accurately judge two fighters he saw 40 years apart?

His estimation, in this case, is worthless and seems more braggadocios in regards to the fact he was at Johnson-Jeffires.

 

He saw live all of these fighters in action which neither you, I or anyone else can say. His opinion means plenty. At 22 nat was already long time involved in the sport. Most historians, true historians not revisionists, would rate jeff ahead of Rocky. Jeff was 6'3 215-220 AND a great fighter. Jeff would manhandle rocky in close and keep him on his heels with his straight left.

 

I am not trusting someone's evaluation of anything over a 40 year gap. And how did Nat ascertain Jeffries to be so great in what was a horrible performance by an absolutely shot fighter? His opinion in this case is the sweet biscuit that Classicists devour with aggressive fervor but any rationale observer would see as mere sugary anecdote. I am glad it brings satisfaction to some.

Jeffries was a rank amateur whose career was a story of "work in progress". Most often, he merely outlasted lesser physical specimens. Perhaps by the end he was a decent heavyweight, but as he chose to fight the aged and lilliputian we shall never know. I grade him right above Alexander Zolkin at 467 on my list.

 

The similarities in their records are astonishingly similar. Look at a comparison of their opponents.

Bob Fitzsimmons and Ezzard Charles (X2) - Both arguably the greatest light heavyweights to ever step in the ring. Both good enough to hold the undisputed World Heavyweight championship. Both were old and past their best at the time of the fight. Both fought well past their prime.

Corbett and Walcott - Both great boxers who are very hard to hit. both good enough to hold the undisputed world championship. Both produced a boxing masterclass that defied the odds, before being KOd in their first championship battle with Jeffries and Marciano respectively. Both were known as boxing masters, but both arguably (and probably unfairly) are considered rife for the knock out against the very best figthers.

Archie Moore and Joe Choynski - Both are arguably the two hardest hitting light heavyweights of all time and two of the best. But both were found just a little short of ever ever establishing themselves as the greatest fighters ever.

Peter Jackson and Joe Louis - Both were considered as teh greatest fighter of all time by many people. And both were so far past their best that it is virtually unanimously considered (even by the fighters themselves) that the fighters they beat should not be considered the same fighter as the great fighters they used to be.

 

Fitz had KOd bigger names than Bob Sattersfield in his fights prior to Jeffries. He would go on to capture the World Light heavyweight title against a very good fighter after the jeffries loss. Charles went on to lose to mathews, McMurtrie, Fleeman and Green, all of whom were close to the light heavyweight limit but not the title.

Louis was a good win, no doubt. Like Peter Jackson, it was not a win over the real Joe Louis.

Choynski was a great light heavyweight and a big puncher. I dont know many light heavy's who can match Choynski's wins against Johnson and Jeffries, even if both were pre prime. He was never good enough to beat the absolute top echelon like Corbett, JAckson and Fitz. Same in reality goes for Moore, who could never be favoured against Marciano, Walcott or Charles. both deserve a very similar all time ranking.

You need to look past the actually weight or age of fighters, and look at how they were ranked at the time, in their own time. Do this, and they are very similar.

 

HEGrant,

I think the difference is Jeffries beat older fighters who were coming off long layoffs(Fitz had not fought for 2 years, corbett had not fought for 3 years) while Marciano faced older great fighters who were coming off top notch wins in recent months.