If Jeffries Stayed Retired ...

Well.....one of the problems might be,along with the lack of footage,there doesn't seem to be many fighters who modeled themselves on him or cited his fighting style as an influence.

Johnson was an avowed admirer of the defensive skills of Corbett.

Fitzsimmons acted as a teacher to Joe Gans ,who in turn influenced Jack Blackburn who trained Joe Louis.

I put the name of Bill Tilden out,but ,in addition to his career, he wrote respected manuals and furthered the technical level of the professional tennis game.

Jeffries stands almost like a solitary figure. A physical specimen ,certainly ,even to the present day,but,from a boxing point of view, difficult to make an assessment of.

 

Undoubtedly.

Jeffries couldnt look into a crystal ball and see that Hart would be a name win in the 21st century.

The truth is that apart from Jack Johnson there wasnt anybody around who would have been a threat to him for a few years.

Fighting Johnson in his prime might have helped him even if he had lost.

 

1. On size--Jeffries is the only really big man who dominated and cleaned out his era until Lewis. Johnson was probably well under 200 lbs until into his thirties. Louis was around 200 lbs. The other top men were under 200 lbs until the 1960 era when modern nutrition, medicine, and probably supplements began to kick in.

2. Size of opponents--He was bigger than the men he fought but the men he fought were the normal sized opponents of the era. The two men much bigger than Jeff in his era--Dunkhorst and Plaacke--lost to Fitz and McCoy and would have been no test. Another way of looking at it--Fitz and Choynski were probably not much different in weight than the Conn who gave Louis a very tough fight or Carpentier and Gibbons who challenged Dempsey. Gibbons took Dempsey fifteen. Jackson, Ruhlin, Sharkey, Armstrong, and Goddard were as big or bigger than Tunney or Brennan or Jack Sharkey (and I would add Flynn) who beat Dempsey or gave him tough fights. They were as big or bigger than Schmeling, Charles, and Marciano who beat Louis, or Conn or Pastor who gave Louis very tough fights. The problem with the size of opponents argument is that the bigger men did not trouble any of the great champions as much as the more talented little fellows did.

3. Only fought 23 (or 21 or 20) fights. Well, he might have fought more which are lost to history, but I think what really matters is how many tough fights Jeff fought. No one's record has less fat on it. He fought Johnson, Fitz (2), Corbett (2), Jackson, Sharkey (2), Ruhlin (2), Choynski, Armstrong, Goddard, Griffin, Everett, and Munroe. That is 16 fights against name opponents. Nat Fleischer said in 1950 that he though Jeff fought more top men than any of his predecessors or successors. He fought the best of his era, white and black. I think the quality of his top opposition, in the context of his time, compares with anyone until Ali. He had as much depth of good men as most other champs other than Louis and Ali and Sharkey and beat all of them except Choynski and Johnson. He never had an embarressing defeat. He was way over the hill before Johnson finally wore him down.

4. I think boxing technique evolved a great after the Jeffries era, but in a historic sense he was clearly one of the most dominant champions. I think he is a very strong candidate for a top ten rating and he has a good case for a top five position, if rating on historical impact.

 

I think the weakness of comparing him to Chuvalo or Bonavena is that that by reputation and on film Jeffries was quick and agile. Chuvalo was tough but a plodder. A Jeffries who came into boxing in the sixties and had the training of that era would have been a far more formidable opponent than Chuvalo, I think.

 

My dates may be a tad off, but didn't Marvin Hart beat Jack Johnson right around the same time that Jeffries elected to retire?

 

The Hart Johnson fight was shortly before Jeffries retired and might just have been the catalyst for him retiring.

 

The real catalyst for his retirement, I think, was his marriage. He just didn't want to be separated from his bride by long months of training. At least that is my judgement after reading about his retirement.

 

Eminently plausible.

He had all the money he wanted, a profitable farm and was hapily maried. Remaining a profesional fighter untill you were spent was not a rewarding option in those days if you had alternative wealth.

I addition the fact that Johnson had just lost to Hart lifted the pressure for him to meet Johnson.

Easy to see why he chose to retire.

 

All very good points from both you and Old Fogey.

I will say however ( though hindsite means little, ) that facing Marvin Hart in one last career bout, then retiring forever, might have boosted his legacy from the standpoint that he beat the man who had beaten Johnson.

 

Damn hindsight.

The contemporary press did not rate Marvin Hart. It is probably literaly fair to say that Jeffries would have got more credit for fighting the 40+ year old Bob Fitzsimmons again. To us today this seems absurd.

The contemporary press raved about Jack Johnson. Even when Marvin Hart was champion they were more interested in Jack Johnson's latest fight than Marvin Harts latest defence of his title. Jeffries received lucrative offers to come out of retirment and fight Johnson while Hart was champion. If he had done it Hart would have ended up defending his title on the undercard.

Hart was treated unfairly at the time and perhaps by history. In hindsight however he was a lot better than given credit for and even Jack Johnson would later acknowledge that.

 

Perhaps, but in fairness to Jeffries, he did offer to fight Hart if there was any interest in such a bout. There apparently wasn't.

I myself don't consider his failure to meet Hart as detracting from his legacy at all. I read the reports of the Hart fight from the San Francisco press. The reporters emphasized that they did not see Hart as much of a test for Jeffries.

 

Didn't you know he was" got at with drugged tea?":yep

 

Correct. Fans knew Hart was no real challenge vs Jeffries. Jeffries said if the fans wanted it, he would fight Hart. The demand was low. The money was never up.

Newspaper reports did see Munroe being a test for Jeffries, who by 1905 had become a polished fighter. One theory as to why demand for Jeffries vs. Hart was low is fans felt Hart would be blow out as quickly as Munroe was.

Hart was not as good as Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey. I think he was likely a notch below Hank Griffin, Gus Ruhlin and Joe Choynski too.