If Joe Calzaghe had lost a fight, would you still consider him an ATG?

elmaldito · Jan 21, 2011

Imagine? I saw hopkins school his ass!

KO KIDD · Jan 21, 2011

depends

a true ATG great is a guy who bounces back after defeat

if he lost and retired without a return who knows

he is an ATG and the best 168lber of all time

Auracle21 · Jan 21, 2011

lol @ people bringin up the legendary BHOP in a calzaghe thread again. i know it hurts. bhop is an all time legend and calzaghe is not. pretty obvious to even the most novice of boxing fans.

bailey · Jan 22, 2011

des3995 said: ↑

All pro fighters deserve respect and I won't call any of them bums and all that. But I'm sorry, most of these guys are the types a top level fighter fights on his way up the ladder as experience builders. Not a steady string of championship defenses.

Ashira
Thornberry
Salem
Jimenez
Fereyra
Mrketchyan
Sobot
Mcintyre

......... are straight up gimmes.(Pudwill not included because he was a replacement)
That's 8 out of 16 fights(not counting Pudwill again) between winning the title against Eubank and unifying with Lacy.

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I said 7 gimmes so the names you have mentioned is almost exact to what I said in that respect, but Mkertchyan wasnt a gimme, he was world rated, entered the top 10 after defeat to Calzaghe, had only at that time lost to a future world champ and beat undefeated 26-0 J Chanet to become European SMW champ. Thats not a gimme.
As noted Pudwill was a late sub, but then you should also note in that case McIntyre as he to was a late sub for Echoles who pulled out against Calzaghe on the Tyson - Nielson undercard.
Fererya although past his best was only a couple of years previously in the Ring top 10 and had never been stopped.
Ashira was a gimme as a tune up for Lacy. So what A Abrahams having one before facing Ward. But yes Ashira was a gimme, but that was the reason.
So in 24 title fights you think 7 gimmes is bad? That makes 17 legit, even if not all the very best. Look at other long reigning champs that you dont apply the same logic to like Jones, Michalczewski and Hopkins

Starie
Sheika
Veit(x2)

.....are better, but not the building blocks of a resume, which they are here.

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You fail to note that Mkertchyan who you have as a gimme accomplished more than Starie and Sheika.
In fact Veit and Mkertchyan have done more at SMW than Dirrell at this time and although Veit was never a world champ, has arguably a better win resume than Lacy, who you feel was Joes asscent win

That leaves......
Reid .....an ok fighter, who put in a good performance vs JC. Lost more often than not when stepping up though.

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Did you ever actually watch Reid or follow his career?
Reid was an odd fighter who would sometimes have off nights and not bother like when he fought Malinga, but consider Reid was top 10 rated before Calzaghe beat him and for many years after. How many feel Reid was unlucky against Ottke who is one of the best SMWs ever?
Reid also beat Brinkley who was a good enough challenger for Bute and undefeated Magee, who is Butes next challenger

Brewer ...... to put it nicely, had certainly seen better days and lost a bunch toward the end, which JC was right in the middle of. Never a world beater.
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Agreed, but he was top 10 rated and was a fair win, still Calzaghe beat Brewer and Veit who destroyed Brewer and Echoles who beat Brewer pulled out against Calzaghe

Mitchell...... an pretty good fighter, JC deserves credit for the manner of the win over a former belt holder.
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Arguably Americas best SMW of the decade

Woodhall..... a decent fighter who had a couple of pretty good wins. A middle of the pack type.

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Woodhall was highly rated and consider at SMW he only lost once in a very close fight with Beyer, where he had Beyer hanging on heavily at the end. But Woodhall beat future WBC champ Catley, future WBA LHW champ Branco, Malinga straight after beating Reid and former WBC champ Nardiello

It was ascent inot the elite, which is where his skills should have taken him sooner. Lacy and the hype has been gone over ad nauseum, but it was a good win IMO and in unifying, it showed he wasn't merely a regional champ beckoning to those who would come and fight him at home, even if it was a home fight. He took on the "fearsome" challenger and kicked his ass. It served as notice that there was a guy willing to step up and be ''the man''.

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It shows that Calzaghe would have been willing to step up any time if the other fighters were willing, consider Lacy was favourite to beat Calzaghe when Joe would have been a clear favourite over any of the others. Also Joe has never been a stay at home fighter, I dont know where that comes from, he had 11 title fights in Wales only and was the away fighter against other world rated fighters 6 times that I can think of off the top of my head

Manfredo was what he was. A tough guy who probably didn't belong in the same ring as Calzaghe. Not a knock on Manfredo, but that was no challenge.
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The Manfredo fight was done for AMERICA only to create interest so a fight against Hopkins would be of interest. But Manfredo was world rated and the next best American SMW after Lacy. Who would you have wanted Calzaghe to fight at this time? This question is important, please answer

Ottke only held the IBF for most of his reign if memory serves. There were other belts and other champs. Mitchell held the belt long before he fought Calzaghe, why not fight him then? Just an example, my friend.
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Sorry you are not completely correct. Mitchell lost the belt to Girard at one stage before winning it again, so the WBC & WBA belts were thrown around but Ottke IBF & Beyer WBC wouldnt go near Calzaghe and Mundine didnt want to know either

Joe has been known to back out of a fight or 3 himself. It happens for whatever reason, some which are never figured out.
only by the wbo as far as I know. I'm always willing to learn new things though.

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Joe was an injury plagued fighter and would pull out with hand injuries alot, remember Calzaghe was told before turning pro that he wouldnt be able to box anymore. Still lets not pretend he was scared, Joe pulled out 3 times before fighting Sheika, and look what happend there, that delay also gave Sheika a bit of improvement time. Calzaghe also pulled out before fighting Lacy and once again look at the result

Showing a fighter's prowess against other guys who also have weak resumes doesn't stand to prove that a guy was a top fighter. Nor does playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon to show he challenged or shared the ring with a quality fighter. Regional belts or championships don't mean much either. In regards to Braehmer, who did he ever beat that was ever a top fighter? ANd what is he doing with his wbo belt? Holding it hostage in Germany. Not a good example IMO.

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In regards to Veit, how can his resume be weak, it is alot stronger than Dirrells or at SMW stronger than Abraham or G Johnsons.
As for Braehmer he was happy to go to Kazakhstan to face Shumenov only to fall ill and will probably travel to the UK to face undefeated Cleverley, though thats not confirmed

Nope its not. But again, lots of reasons fights don't happen. But Hopkins gets no benefit of the doubt from me. As for the rest, I am not privy to the internal dealings of any fights. I don't know who was or wasn't willing to fight who for whatever their reasons were, his or theirs. I just know there are a lot more names amongst the upper echelon of available fighters that he did not fight as opposed to who he did.

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So Hopkins who wouldnt fight Jones when he was LHW champ gets no benefit of the doubt but Calzaghe does.
Please Calzaghe was a SMW champ that Beyer and Ottke and Mundine didnt want to fight, so who wasnt tied up that he was meant to fight at SMW? When 2 champs who were willing to unify came along and both of whom get more praise, Calzaghe beat them both when past his best, remember that Lacy and Kessler both thought Calzaghe was past it. If he hadnt of been Im not sure Lacy would have wanted it

I find Ring rankings to be much more fair and accurate than the alphabet belt rankings(self interests). They require no sanctioning fees nor any hanky panky. They may be biased to some degree, but I think we can both agree that they are clearly far less biased than the wba/wbc/ibf/wbo rankings.
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The Ring ratings are very bias as are most ratings. The Ring is no more an expert than Boxing Monthly. The Ring highlights and promotes alot of American fighters and good for them but consider how they had American J Butler in their ratings for a long time and what did he ever do? Bias ratings because he was an American fighter that was recognised but no better than say Starie and definately not as good as Veit or Mkertchyan.
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des3995 · Jan 22, 2011

bailey said: ↑

I said 7 gimmes so the names you have mentioned is almost exact to what I said in that respect, but Mkertchyan wasnt a gimme, he was world rated, entered the top 10 after defeat to Calzaghe, had only at that time lost to a future world champ and beat undefeated 26-0 J Chanet to become European SMW champ. Thats not a gimme.

As noted Pudwill was a late sub, but then you should also note in that case McIntyre as he to was a late sub for Echoles who pulled out against Calzaghe on the Tyson - Nielson undercard.
Fererya although past his best was only a couple of years previously in the Ring top 10 and had never been stopped.
Ashira was a gimme as a tune up for Lacy. So what A Abrahams having one before facing Ward. But yes Ashira was a gimme, but that was the reason.
So in 24 title fights you think 7 gimmes is bad? That makes 17 legit, even if not all the very best. Look at other long reigning champs that you dont apply the same logic to like Jones, Michalczewski and Hopkins
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Gimmes during his reign as wbo champ...... before Lacy. That was 16 fights (Minus Pudwill.) I don't know anything about the McIntyre situation to be honest. How long before the fight did he jump on? Wasn't Calzaghe/ Echols supposed to be much later?
No mind, its still roughly 50% gimmes from 97-06. That's the bulk of JC's prime, is it not? And not a B+ fighter among them. That is as much the issue as the gimmes. The highest level guys he had in there aren't nearly enough to offset the gimmes.

You fail to note that Mkertchyan who you have as a gimme accomplished more than Starie and Sheika.
In fact Veit and Mkertchyan have done more at SMW than Dirrell at this time and although Veit was never a world champ, has arguably a better win resume than Lacy, who you feel was Joes asscent win

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If doing what Mrketchyan did is all it takes to become a viable candidate for a guy making a defense 7 or 8 years into his reign.........I don't know what to tell you. I guess we have different ideas.
I didn't want to include Starie or Sheika as gimmes. They are slightly better than that. Sheika basically lost every time he went world class. Starie doesn't have much in the way of resume.

Did you ever actually watch Reid or follow his career?
Reid was an odd fighter who would sometimes have off nights and not bother like when he fought Malinga, but consider Reid was top 10 rated before Calzaghe beat him and for many years after. How many feel Reid was unlucky against Ottke who is one of the best SMWs ever?
Reid also beat Brinkley who was a good enough challenger for Bute and undefeated Magee, who is Butes next challenger
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All of which means what? That other guys fight for a title every now and then? Reid was ok and a decent fighter. He was no world beater.

It shows that Calzaghe would have been willing to step up any time if the other fighters were willing, consider Lacy was favourite to beat Calzaghe when Joe would have been a clear favourite over any of the others.

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Lacy was a hypejob of the highest order, got dominated and faded away. Still a good win over a guy who was supposed to be hot. The fact that Lacy was favored says to me that people didn't know how JC would fare because he hadn't fought a high level of opposition.

Also Joe has never been a stay at home fighter, I dont know where that comes from, he had 11 title fights in Wales only and was the away fighter against other world rated fighters 6 times that I can think of off the top of my head
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UK=home. Not just Wales.

The Manfredo fight was done for AMERICA only to create interest so a fight against Hopkins would be of interest. But Manfredo was world rated and the next best American SMW after Lacy. Who would you have wanted Calzaghe to fight at this time? This question is important, please answer
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Tarver, Dawson, Adamek, Allen Green, Glen Johnson(again) all would have been better opponents, if you are keeping with the idea that it had to be tailored to an American audience.

Sorry you are not completely correct. Mitchell lost the belt to Girard at one stage before winning it again, so the WBC & WBA belts were thrown around but Ottke IBF & Beyer WBC wouldnt go near Calzaghe and Mundine didnt want to know either
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Either way, unification was still a better option than not. I still contend had he really wanted the big fights, he should have moved up to lhw sooner.

Joe was an injury plagued fighter and would pull out with hand injuries alot, remember Calzaghe was told before turning pro that he wouldnt be able to box anymore. Still lets not pretend he was scared, Joe pulled out 3 times before fighting Sheika, and look what happend there, that delay also gave Sheika a bit of improvement time. Calzaghe also pulled out before fighting Lacy and once again look at the result
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It doesn't matter really. As i said, there are plenty of reasons fights don't get made. There have been things said to the extent that JC had backed out of fights because of injury, confidence issues, divorce, etc. Warren had to talk him into fighting, His father had to...... Point is, It doesn't really matter, because we may never know the true reasons 100%. It applies to Joe and other guys too. You either fought someone or you didn't. Boxing doesn't allow for "what ifs".

In regards to Veit, how can his resume be weak, it is alot stronger than Dirrells or at SMW stronger than Abraham or G Johnsons.
As for Braehmer he was happy to go to Kazakhstan to face Shumenov only to fall ill and will probably travel to the UK to face undefeated Cleverley, though thats not confirmed
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Dirrell has, what, around 20 fights? What does it have to do with Veit anyway? Alot of fighters could have fought Veit's resume and not lost other than Joe. Johnsons struggles at smw are well documented. I give him credit for stepping up and fighting all comers regardless.

So Hopkins who wouldnt fight Jones when he was LHW champ gets no benefit of the doubt but Calzaghe does.
Please Calzaghe was a SMW champ that Beyer and Ottke and Mundine didnt want to fight, so who wasnt tied up that he was meant to fight at SMW? When 2 champs who were willing to unify came along and both of whom get more praise, Calzaghe beat them both when past his best, remember that Lacy and Kessler both thought Calzaghe was past it. If he hadnt of been Im not sure Lacy would have wanted it
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Hopkins not getting the benefit of the doubt means I am cutting him no slack. I don't care to defend him. If he ducked Calzaghe, he did. I don't care to argue the point. But I will say, again, there are lots of reasons fights don't get made.

The Ring ratings are very bias as are most ratings. The Ring is no more an expert than Boxing Monthly. The Ring highlights and promotes alot of American fighters and good for them but consider how they had American J Butler in their ratings for a long time and what did he ever do? Bias ratings because he was an American fighter that was recognised but no better than say Starie and definately not as good as Veit or Mkertchyan.
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No doubt all ratings have a certain amount of bias. But they are a collation of the alphabet belt rankings which ALWAYS have a self serving motive. Ratings are subjective, and often times, in the absence of a definitive separation(such as quality of previous resume) talent will be the deciding factor.
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mrbassie · Jan 22, 2011

I don't consider him one anyway.

jas · Jan 22, 2011

For those who consider him an ATG , name me one GREAT fighter he beat in their PRIME? Just one.

gregor · Jan 22, 2011

The numbers alone are not that important. No one has a problems with Duran or Hearns as ATGs. Facing the best opponents available is more important than retiring undefeated.

Fighters like Marziano are an exception - but most of the time, if a retired boxer still keeps his "0" it means he could've fought better opposition (to put it nicely).

Beatle · Jan 22, 2011

Calzaghe did lose a fight: to Robin Reid. And I don't consider him an ATG.

Loggo · Jan 22, 2011

Didn`t know he was ATG.Unbeaten so what? I don`t rate him as that.

doylexxx · Jan 22, 2011

FACT

first title holder that Joe fought was Jeff Lacy !!

doylexxx · Jan 22, 2011

JOe made 2 successful defenses of the SMW title get it right

bailey · Jan 23, 2011

des3995 said: ↑

Gimmes during his reign as wbo champ...... before Lacy. That was 16 fights (Minus Pudwill.) I don't know anything about the McIntyre situation to be honest. How long before the fight did he jump on? Wasn't Calzaghe/ Echols supposed to be much later?

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I cant remember how soon it was before when Echoles backed out, but that is the reason for the fight with McIntyre. Still McIntyre although a gimme had only lost twice on points to Sheika and (I cant think of his name Jewish fighter) but Calzaghe dealt with his bad luck in 4 easy rounds

No mind, its still roughly 50% gimmes from 97-06. That's the bulk of JC's prime, is it not? And not a B+ fighter among them. That is as much the issue as the gimmes. The highest level guys he had in there aren't nearly enough to offset the gimmes.

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He fought who was available, but at the times he fought Mitchell, Reid, Woodhall they were all above B+ at SMW, they were near the top of what was the division. The difference is now is that America is focussing on the SMW division so it gets recognition, I doubt Froch would have beaten Woodhall, as I think Woodhall would have been able to outbox him, yet Froch beat Dirrell who I guess you would say is above B+ even though he lost to limited Froch and was KOd when down by Abraham.
Its easier to look back at a career and discredit it when finished and rate a fighter when undefeated and living it. I have already proven that Woodhalls record is good.
Back to Calzaghe for a fighter who at that time to have fought in 17 world title fights and have 7 gimmes, that isnt terrible especially as 2 were late subs.

If doing what Mrketchyan did is all it takes to become a viable candidate for a guy making a defense 7 or 8 years into his reign.........I don't know what to tell you. I guess we have different ideas.

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Mkertchyan beat the #1 contender, to become the #1 contender. If you dont want to lose your belt you honour them, it wouldnt make sense to be stripped. But as said Mkertchyan became European champ and was proven for that

I didn't want to include Starie or Sheika as gimmes. They are slightly better than that. Sheika basically lost every time he went world class. Starie doesn't have much in the way of resume.

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Alot of fighters that step up dont always have top resumes, but its how they look on the way up, and how they deal with lesser fighters

All of which means what? That other guys fight for a title every now and then? Reid was ok and a decent fighter. He was no world beater.

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Of course Reid was a world beater, he won his WBC title away in Italy and looked unlucky against Ottke, one of the best SMWs ever

Lacy was a hypejob of the highest order, got dominated and faded away. Still a good win over a guy who was supposed to be hot. The fact that Lacy was favored says to me that people didn't know how JC would fare because he hadn't fought a high level of opposition.

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He had beaten Americas best SMWs up to then and Mitchell was arguably a better fighter than Lacy, its just Lacy was hyped

UK=home. Not just Wales.

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NO. I live in England, they are different countries, but still Calzaghe defended in Denmark and Germany also before fighting twice in America

Tarver, Dawson, Adamek, Allen Green, Glen Johnson(again) all would have been better opponents, if you are keeping with the idea that it had to be tailored to an American audience.

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Heres where your arguement is hate fuelled. Manfredo was the next best American SMW after Lacy who Calzaghe had beaten, so those fighters you mention werent on the agenda as his next fight was due to be Kessler the next highest SMW who was a better fight at that time

Either way, unification was still a better option than not. I still contend had he really wanted the big fights, he should have moved up to lhw sooner.
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Why. We wouldnt be talking about the greatest SMW ever then. He might not have been given an opportunity at LHW and then would never have won the WBC WBA IBF Ring SMW titles

Dirrell has, what, around 20 fights? What does it have to do with Veit anyway? Alot of fighters could have fought Veit's resume and not lost other than Joe. Johnsons struggles at smw are well documented. I give him credit for stepping up and fighting all comers regardless.

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Dirrell was an example but in his few fights he has lost already and found ways out of fighting, so % wise that makes him just as bad, yet you defend him, and remember alot of the fighters we are talking about had only had 20 odd fights etc when these victories happend

No doubt all ratings have a certain amount of bias. But they are a collation of the alphabet belt rankings which ALWAYS have a self serving motive. Ratings are subjective, and often times, in the absence of a definitive separation(such as quality of previous resume) talent will be the deciding factor
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Fair enough, but in that case I showed you ratings where Calzaghe had more names in those victories than not
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HoldMyBeer · Jan 23, 2011

the_baller said: ↑

If Joe wasn't 46-0*, would he still be considered an ATG? What if he had lost a fight, any fight, and his record was 45-1, would he be talked about here? Would the euro-pee-ons still champion him and compare him to Ali?

So imagine Joe Calzaghe 45-1, does his record or legacy still make him out to be a great fighter?
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his record has nothing to do with it.

des3995 · Jan 23, 2011

bailey said: ↑

I cant remember how soon it was before when Echoles backed out, but that is the reason for the fight with McIntyre. Still McIntyre although a gimme had only lost twice on points to Sheika and (I cant think of his name Jewish fighter) but Calzaghe dealt with his bad luck in 4 easy rounds
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I also didnt see anywhere that McIntyre was a late replacement.Not doubting you, my friend. But it also shows that Calzaghe was trying to fight Echols in 05. McIntyre was in 01 or 02. Maybe it was another guy(not Echols)? Or was 05 another round of negotiations.....I dont know.

He fought who was available, but at the times he fought Mitchell, Reid, Woodhall they were all above B+ at SMW, they were near the top of what was the division.
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He fought who was willing to come to him. Fighting for the wbo title on enemy territory isn't exactly a big incentive, especially for quality fighters with other options. Even the better guys he fought, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell, had been contenders or belt holders for years prior. Why not fight them earlier? Instead some of those gimmes?

And none were B+. Again, I guess we have different ideas. Mitchell and Woodhall may have been as high as a B fighter at the time Joe fought them.

The difference is now is that America is focussing on the SMW division so it gets recognition, I doubt Froch would have beaten Woodhall, as I think Woodhall would have been able to outbox him, yet Froch beat Dirrell who I guess you would say is above B+ even though he lost to limited Froch and was KOd when down by Abraham.
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Watching the fights, one can see the difference in class. The division is deeper and more relevant than it was back then. There are more world class fighters. Sure, publicity and interest helps. But again, watching the level of the operators is the best way to see it.

Having watched both Froch and Woodhall, I'd go with Froch quite handily. And I am not a big Froch lover.

Dirrell lost to Froch in a close fight, that, let's face it....One only need to watch the fight to see the gulf in boxing talent. (obviously that's not all that goes into it.) Dirrell was green and probably not prepared to go into the lion's den.
I, as I am sure you do, find Dirrell's fortitude a little suspect. But the guy has skills. But, I digress, why are we discussing Dirrell?

Its easier to look back at a career and discredit it when finished and rate a fighter when undefeated and living it. I have already proven that Woodhalls record is good.
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I am not trying to discredit Woodhall at all. He has some pretty good wins.

Back to Calzaghe for a fighter who at that time to have fought in 17 world title fights and have 7 gimmes, that isnt terrible especially as 2 were late subs.
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Again, we can agree to disagree, by my count has it at 8, and if you arent counting Pudwill and McIntyre(whether he was or wasn't a late sub) as gimmes, then you should not count them as defenses in my book. Regardless of the true number, it is somewhere around 50%. Is that a good number to you?

Mkertchyan beat the #1 contender, to become the #1 contender. If you dont want to lose your belt you honour them, it wouldnt make sense to be stripped. But as said Mkertchyan became European champ and was proven for that
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Holding a regional a regional title and being the #1 contender to an obscure belt does not make him a world class operator. He wasn't B level. He was a gimme.

Alot of fighters that step up dont always have top resumes, but its how they look on the way up, and how they deal with lesser fighters

Of course Reid was a world beater, he won his WBC title away in Italy and looked unlucky against Ottke, one of the best SMWs ever
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It's not about geography. What quality world class fighters did Reid himself actually beat?

He had beaten Americas best SMWs up to then and Mitchell was arguably a better fighter than Lacy, its just Lacy was hyped
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Possibly. I still would have preferred to see him fight some higher quality guys in place of some of those gimmes, regardless of their homeland.

NO. I live in England, they are different countries, but still Calzaghe defended in Denmark and Germany also before fighting twice in America
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I am part Welsh as you know, I know they are different countries. The UK is still homefield for Joe. Try telling Sheika or Bika that it wasn't hometown for JC because it wasn't specifically in Wales. You know better.

Heres where your arguement is hate fuelled. Manfredo was the next best American SMW after Lacy who Calzaghe had beaten, so those fighters you mention werent on the agenda as his next fight was due to be Kessler the next highest SMW who was a better fight at that time
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Because i am not bending over backwards to view JC's resume in a favorable light, does not mean my argument is hate fueled. I am far more middle of the road than most on here when it comes to Calzaghe and you know that. I have no problem saying Manfredo was a tuneup. But don't make it out to be that it was some kind of challenge.

You asked me what fights would have been better that raised JC's profile in America. These are. Sowhat if they were riskier.

Why. We wouldnt be talking about the greatest SMW ever then. He might not have been given an opportunity at LHW and then would never have won the WBC WBA IBF Ring SMW titles
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Are you saying that his career was pursued with the idea of becoming the greatest smw ever? The way it was handled and the choices he made certainly make it look that way. Taking the path of least resistance is not the way I'd like my fighters to strive to be the best.

Where does being the best smw ever get you when it done on the back of a relatively weak resume?

If he truly wanted to be the best, he would have taken some chances against the stiffer competition at lhw. Apparently he he was having trouble making 168 anyway, so why not give it a go?

Dirrell was an example but in his few fights he has lost already and found ways out of fighting, so % wise that makes him just as bad, yet you defend him, and remember alot of the fighters we are talking about had only had 20 odd fights etc when these victories happend
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I don't understand why Dirrell is brought up at all. Nor how his career relates to a guy like Veit.

Fair enough, but in that case I showed you ratings where Calzaghe had more names in those victories than not
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Having watched those fighters in question, do you consider them better options than some of the others out there? Including moving up to LHW?
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