If Joe fights Pavlik, and wins (I think he will) - how do you rate the victory?

It would be his best victory to date. Although Pavlik is a natural MW

 

Well, thank you. I think Pavlik beats Hopkins too but I will never vote against B-Hop or count him out. I´m too much a fan of him. If Pavlik wins this one it will cement his standing in the top10 and put him clearly above Kessler - who is fighting Häussler next :bart
But yeah, Beyer is better and achieved much more than Miranda, Zuniga and the same goes for Lucas imo. Andrade you could argue isn´t any better than Miranda but then there is still Mudine on Kessler´s record who boosts it also. Like I said, I agree with Taylor beeing a bigger win than any on Pavlik´s but all in all I think both are resumes are about even, the loss against Joe C. is a knock at Kessler´s record though. Kessler has more quantity in his quality while Pavlik has Taylor in his resume.
I agree Kessler is an underachiever but that´s also due to the weakness of 168 at the moment beside him there is only Bute as a good smw. Nevertheless I´d pick him above every mw and smw with the exception of Pavlik - who I also pick over any mw and smw with the exception of Abraham.
I agree that Taylor got underrated but he still has the best resume of all current mws and smws imo.

 

people should know that if joe was to win, the same argument would just role around again, with some other prospect that apparently joe is running from, like jeff and kessler before pavlik, its a joke. joe will beat kelly, and win convincingly imo

 

the Calzaghe we saw against Kessler and the Calzaghe we are going to see against Jones will not be the same. Being shot is often about hunger. Until the Kessler fight, Calzaghe still had alot to prove and to achieve. Not anymore (at least not in his eyes). I don't think Calzaghe is physically shot, i think his motivation and dedication to training has waned. Talking about retirement before a fight like Calzaghe is doing now is usually a bad sign. Before the Kessler fight, Calzaghe was talking about fighting all the big names. The difference is huge.

I would consider the Calzaghe that fought Kessler to be prime. Prime is not only about physical capabilities, but also a mix of physical attributes and mental fortitude. I thought the Calzaghe who fought Kessler was even better than the one who beat Lacy, but he was less dominant cuase Kessler is that much better than Lacy.

 

We are mostly in agreement then in a round-about way. I think Kessler is overrated, I think he is an underachiever, but that does not mean I do not think he is a very good fighter, because I do. Maybe he will go on to become a great fighter, but I have my doubts. He seems pretty one-dimensional to me. I wouldn't fancy him to do much at light-heavy where his size and strength won't be such an advantage.

 

Pavlik defeated Taylor twice. I like Kessler and I think he would have a decent shot at beating Pavlik if they fought, but do not tell me that by Mikkel beating those three guys his resume outshines Pav's victories over a then formidable Miranda and two wins over Jermain Taylor. That is ridiculous logic.

 

If Joe fought and beat Kelly, it would be either his best or 2nd best win. That would depend on what Pavlik and Kessler do in the future.

 

it will be very big imo, granted that pav lights up bhop.. it would solidify his claim as an atg.. impressive victory for sure

 

In a couple of decades time he'd probably get some credit but at first it would be discredited in the way most of his victories are.

 

Yea, we are not that far apart. I just think Kessler isn´t overrated - at least not in the US. I also doubt he will become a great, not because he lacks the ability but because of the zeitgeist and politics. It seems that nowadays only a very rare breed of fighter wants to be great the rest follows the money way. Sad.
At lhw he would win a belt, the only one who could rival him there in the future is Dawson imo, the rest there is too old, Hopkins, Jones, Calzaghe, Tarver, Johnson, Woods will all retire in the next 1-2 years. Perhaps Pavlik and Taylor will move up to lhw some time in the future.

I never said Kessler´s resume outshines Pavlik but that they are even. Pavlik´s wins over Taylor are big but the rest of his wins aren´t as good as wins over Mundine, Beyer and Lucas. If you then add guys like Siaca and Andrade who are as good as Zuniga and Miranda than you have pretty solid resume what is up there with Pavlik´s. Europeans just lack the lobby in the US media to be ranked as high as Americans when they have a similar resume but not as a big name.

 

You may laugh. You may scoff. I honestly wouldn't mind,as I realize popular opinion would not be with me on this one. But I honestly believe Glen Johnson would beat Mikkel Kessler. I do have a soft spot for Johnson. And I think he is a ****ing good lhw who has been robbed too many times.

Miranda at the time was a wrecking machine. I maintain he was a tougher opponent for Pavlik than Beyer was for Kessler, and comparable to the other two. Miranda is like Hamed and Lacy - after a bad loss, he doesn't seem to be recovering. But at the time he was a brute. It was a great win.

 

Well, I don´t agree on the Johnson thing right now, he´s shortly before beeing finished right now but I have very much respect for that guy. He is what boxing is all about :good

Miranda also has a very poor resume. He was exciting but he already was exposed in the first four rounds against Abraham - I always thought Miranda was far far overrated and that he just had luck he catched AA with his mouth opened, without that Abraham would have stopped him. He always just was too flawed of a fighter. Even Lacy has a superior resume to Miranda.

 

Did you see Dawson v Johnson? I think he's a couple of years away from being finished. He is indeed. :good

I would fancy Miranda to beat Lacy H2H. Miranda got owned by Abraham, but Abraham is an excellent fighter who is going to be BIG given time. I saw Lacy v Manfredo. Very poor.