If Joe Louis fought in the late 80' to 90' against those heavy weight champs

He was one of the best contenders of his day. He beat Elmer Ray, Godoy, Lee Q Murray, Valentino

 

Where did Ali talk about Frazier having "fat bellies, out of shape, awkward, had no stance, no footwork, they couldn´t even move that much (jump)" ?
Ali is clearly upset in that clip when Cus states he was fighting bums. And he´s correct about that not beeing a legit argument.

Who? Tony Galento, who dropped Louis and both Ali and Cus watched on TV?

It´s obvious as day and night that HWs got bigger and more scientific. How can anyone argue different? Like stating US-Army of WW2 would handle modern warfare?
Joe Louis was fantastic, but his resume would look worse of he walked in Alis, Holmes, or Holyfields footsteps.

 

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Good that Louis fought 60+more opponents than Galento.

Bigger? Sure.
More scientific? No way.

 

Not really, Louis defended against far better fighters than him.

 

Walcott was better but really without putting his career under a microscope by watching his fights, impossible, we can't say how good he was compared to the rest of the opponents Louis defended against.

 

So you think that only black fighter can be better? How about Baer, Schmeling, Pastor, Conn, Nova, hell even Carnera... Louis beat a lot of better fighters than him and you wouldn't know his name if he would have been white.

Bob Pastor beat him twice. Abe Simon drew with him. He lost series with Valentino. He beat Godoy when he was past his prime. He wasn't a world beater, Louis beat a lot of fighters on his level.

 

You can describe a lot of oafish modern super heavies with these adjectives: slow, big bellies, poor stamina (throwing less than 30 punches per round in some cases), flat footed or very basic footwork, mediocre defense, and not particularly athletic. There is tons of leaning and clinching, zero inside fighting and very little body work.

The best qualities about the average modern heavyweight is that they have good basic fundamentals, good general ring IQ and know how to fight tall and use their height. Very few contenders outside of guys like Daniel Dubois who fight on undercards are very impressive.

 

The time line is a little bit strange. Do you mean his career begins in the 80's fighting the usual cans, journeyman and contenders but has to face each of these boxers at some point during his career?

I'll try to keep this chronological.

If Louis is a rising contender and has a collision course with Tyson for the undisputed title before Tyson faces Douglas, there is a lot to consider. Both guys were combination punching machines but both had some flaws they could exploit in each other. No doubt Rooney and Atlas would notice Louis dropping his left arm, his slow feet, and his short jab. Likewise, Black burn would notice moments like the Pinklon Thomas fight where Tyson is confused when he doesn't simply destroy the opponent in 2 rounds and is constantly looking for one big punch, the Smith fight where it's clear Tyson has no clue how to properly fight inside and is easy to clinch, or the Tucker fight where he showed that he could be nailed by uppercuts.

As long as Tyson isn't partying with hotel maids and both guys have a full training camp, this would be an amazing fight. I think Tyson scores a knock down in the 2nd dropping Louis with a right hand bomb over his low jab. Louis gets to his feet and in the 3rd he starts crowding Tyson and working the body, something few opponents did to Tyson. In the 4th, Tyson lands some good body shots if his own and then drops Louis again who is more stunned than hurt, probably wondering why he keeps falling for the same punch. He starts snapping that piston jab and by round 5 has swelled up Tyson's eyes. Tyson's head movement is slowly becoming easier to time and less consistent as he is frustrated wanting to just blast Louis out head hunting. Louis nails Tyson with a crushing uppercut and drops him. Tyson is up at 5 and they meet ring center in a furious exchange with both men trying to end the other.

Round 6 and Louis' well rounded ability to infight as well as sharp shoot at long range is paying off. Tyson is almost completely gassed from all the body shots, his left eye shut from the jabs, and his lips cut up from the uppercuts. He hasn't given up, and saves up for a hail Mary right hand over Louis' low left which proves fatal. Louis is up at 8 and very groggy with a determined look but the ref has seen enough. Tyson collapses being caught by Rooney too tired to celebrate and wins fight of the year.

There is talks of Tyson vs Holyfield but Louis demands a rematch. Even thoigh Tyson won in an amazing slugfest, management isn't liking the idea given how busted up Tyson was and how he nearly lost. They take a time up while Louis tries to fight Holyfield who refuses because he doesn't want to ruin his payday. A frustrated Louis takes a stay busy fight then takes on the highly ranked and avoided Razor Ruddock. Louis gets off the deck to stop Ruddock in 10 in a jaw dropping slug fest.

Meanwhile, Buster Douglas shakes up the boxing world KOing Tyson in Tokyo. Douglas parties and gains weight then is destroyed by Holyfield who is now tbe undisputed champion. Team Tyson finally reaches out to Team Louis who agree to meet. The winner is guarranteed a shot at the winner between Holyfield and Foreman.

Louis makes adjustments and scores an 11th round TKO over Tyson who has no answer for a more cautious and defensive Louis who takes his time methodically breaking down Tyson who fired Kevin Rooney and has become a more predictable slugger. A beautiful but painful to watch 7 punch combination puts Tyson down, who barely gets up and is battered until the corner throws in the towel. Tyson is later charged with sexual assault and goes to prison.

Holyfield defeats Foreman and agrees to fight Louis. This turns out to be a brutal yet very tactical bout. Holyfield at first tries to use his legs to circle Louis and is commanding a good lead with jabs and flurries the first 2 rounds. Louis, stone faced, continues pressuring and stalking. In the 3rd, Louis corners Hotlfield along the ropes who tries to escape but is dropped by a jab feint into hook. A ballistic Holyfield is up at 2, practically shoving the ref out the way and they exchange. The bell rings and they continue exchanging a full 5 seconds and receive a warning. The entire arena is on it's feet.

Round 4, Holyfield surprises Louis and comes to him, shoulders hunched and itching to get to work. Louis hammers away with his jab, Holyfield jabs back. All of a sudden it becomes tactical again and both men are trying to control the range. Louis' hand speed and crisper punches win him the round. Holyfield is done playing Louis' game and becomes a counter puncher in the 5th. He counters an uppercut with an awesome hook that rocks Louis. Round 6 Both men need a breather and it looks like the first 2 rounds where Holyfield uses his legs a bit and throws a few light flurries to keep Louis honest. Round 7, Holyfield goes for a body shot, then a clash of heads rocks Louis as he comes up. Louis has a cut on his eyebrow but it isn't getting in the eye. Like a shark smelling blood, Holyfield hammers away to make it worse. Round 8, Louis blasts with an explosive 1-2 that knocks the sweat off Holyfield. Once again, the 2 exchange furiously. Round 9, Holyfield throws jab right hook combination and Louis is down on one knee. The score cards are now extremely close and both fighters are nervous going into round 10 trying not to make big mistakes. Round 11, Louis traps a circling Holyfield on the ropes and unloads a blistering combinations. Just when it seems Holy will go down, he seemingly rises from the dead and whacks Louis with a big right--blood explodes off Louis face. The ring doctor checks it out and gives Louis a final warning. Thankfully they stop the bleeding but round 12 proves to be the round of the decade as the two furiously exchange. Louis clips Holyfield with a jolting uppercut just barely grazing the chin. Holy is up quick and fights valiantly but too late. Louis wins by a very close decision.

Louis is now undisputed champion. Riddick Big daddy Bowe calls out Louis and wants his shot. After KOing Tommy Morrison and Bruce Seldon, Louis agrees. They meet in 1995 for another crazy fight. Bowe's ridiculous chin and remarkable inside fighting ability prove to be the ingredients in slowing down this boxing machine in Joe Louis. Joe is beaten to the punch, bullied, leaned on, dropped, and outgunned. He has his best success on the inside where they have an entertaining exchange here and there but he simply can't put a dent in Bowe who wins by TKO in the 9th after a huge uppercut.

Lennox Lewis, who was supposed to get a shot at the winner, is ignored. Bowe dumps his belt. The titles are splintered up. Lennox and Louis meet for the vacant WBC belt. The two are very wary of each other, not fully committing to punches. It's a fairly uneventful fight. Lennox is starting to paw with his jab and gets brutally dropped by Louis in the 3rd. Ironically, Louis had the same weakness and knew exactly how to capitalize. Lennox tries clinching, throwing, moving, anything to get away but he's on jelly legs and is dropped again before the ref waves it off.

Meanwhile, Tyson is out of prison and after a few tune ups fights Holyfield for the vacant IBF. Holyfield wins and challenges WBA champ Bowe. Holyfield wins a close decision over Bowe and is now IBF and WBA champ.

Lennox hires Emmanuel Stewart and uses his rematch clause to face Joe Louis. He gets his revenge and stops Joe in 5 in a vicious methodical beat down. Lennox fights Holyfield and wins a close decision to become undisputed.

Joe has a few come back fights demolishing Andrew Golota and Alex Stewart. A trilogy fight with Tyson would be worth 100 million but Tyson refuses. Lennox won't rematch him either as he sees a bout with Bowe or Tyson as huge paydays. Sadly, Joe Louis is frozen out and we don't see him compete at the championship level again.

 

My feelings aren't hurt, my friend. Everyone has a right to an opinion. The problem is, you're not offering up specific reasons as to how boxing "moved on", you simply provided a snide response that didn't elaborate on your original claim (which is what half a dozen members here were waiting for).

There's not a knowledgeable boxing fan, writer, judge that wouldn't put Joe Louis in the top three or four greatest heavyweights of all time. Most would put him significantly ahead of Iron Mike (despite the fact that Mike was a very fine fighter himself).

Perhaps you might watch some of the Joe Louis fights more carefully. I mean that respectfully btw. I'll understand if you don't change your mind. Just understand yourself that most people here were curious as to what you meant by boxing "moving on". And remain so.

Perhaps take the time to offer specific examples. I'm not being facetious. I think you might have written that without thinking and if that is true hey, we all do that now and then. If not, we're all still waiting for a detailed elaboration.

 

Holyfield was a relatively small heavyweight, yet he's top 5 ATG material.

I'm wondering...exactly how is boxing more scientific? Through the use of PEDs? Please elaborate.

Is it any more scientific than, say, Sugar Ray Robinson? I'd be especially fascinated to learn that was the case.

 

Holmes? Lmao heard it all now

 

Thats about correct, to some portion.
Difference is that a smaller than Louis opponent with "slow, big bellies, poor stamina (throwing less than 30 punches per round in some cases), flat footed or very basic footwork, mediocre defense, and not particularly athletic" could in fact not "fight tall and use their height" against him.
Which is exactly what we saw with Carnera and both Baers success. The even bigger modern "oafish" SHWs could do even more trouble than them, and much more then the limited smaller fighters Louis faced.

 

Want to check some more film of the fellows Holmes and Louis fought, or check their weightclass and match them in fantasy bouts? Witherspoon vs Schmeling, or Baer vs Cooney?

 

Yeah, this wouldn't end well for Cooney.

 

Holmes scalps are nothing to boast about...especially Witherspoon and Cooney. If you left it at Ali and Holyfield I’d agree. But not giving you Holmes.