If Joe Louis,was never born

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Ray trying to knockout Charles

 

Ray sort of looks like Tyson there.

 

Lee Q Murray 6'3 210lb- Won Duration Heavyweight Championship of the world recognized by Ohio and Maryland Commissions with a 8th round knockout over Top Contender 6'4 Harry Bobo. Murray also defeated strong opposition in Jimmy Bivins 2x, Harry Bobo, Hatchetman Sheppard 5x, Turkey Thompson, Perk Daniels 2x, Al Hart, Clayton Worlds, Buddy Walker 3x, and Lou Brooks. He went into sharp decline after 1947 and had a string of bad early Kayo losses that ruined him but in his prime years Lee was a wrecking machine! Ray Arcel called Murray the best puncher of the 1940s next to Joe Louis. Theres an old article made in early 90s maybe about long career of Hatchetman Sheppard and he says "Lee Q Murray is the most underrated fighter of all time" and called Murray and Walcott as the two best hed fought.

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Lee Q Murray on the right, fights Jimmy Bivins



Cleveland Promoter Believes Murray Can Take Joe Louis:


BY JACK CUDDY


NEW YORK, Dec. 7—(UP)—


Larry Atkins of Cleveland,
America's second ranking
prizefight promoter, believes
that Lee. Q. Murray, big Connecticut
negro, is the most
dangerous potential threat to
Sgt. Joe Louis' heavyweight
crown.
"If the war wuz to end to
morrow,"says promoter Atkins,


"I'd say the man most
likely to lick
Louis wuz Lee Q. Murray."
This Atkins' praise of Murray
was so entirely unexpected
that a startled reporter inquired
of the visiting Cleveland entrepreneur
last night, "how
come you boost, Murray, when
he almost'ruined Jimmy Bivins,
your meal, ticket, last week?"
Atkins, a youngish, broadshouldered,
black-haired chap
of 41, fixed thereporter with steely eyes, and remonstrated,'In our Cleveland promotions,we have no meal tickets. We have cards. A Cleveland fighter is a card as long as he can lick anybody we bringin. When he loses to an outsider, the outsider becomes the card." In the case of Murray vs.
"Card" Bivins of Cleveland,
promoter Atkins was doubly
fortunate. Little Bivins won an
unpopular 10-round decision
over Murray last Wednesday
night, after Murray had the
Cleveland negro staggering
about the ring and dripping with
gore. The fans booed the-decision
so long, and so lustily that
a re-match was as necessary as
if by royal command. They'll
tangle, again in late February
— after both principals recover
from their wounds.
Atkins, who in four short
years changed Cleveland from
one of the country's worst fight
cities into a promoter's paradise,
said, "I knew Murray was a
good fighter before I matched
him'with Bivins. But during the
first two rounds, I thought
Murray would ruin me. He
never let loose with a punch.
Disgustedly, I left my seat at
the ringside, and walked to the
rear of the arena. But Murray
was just mouse-trapping his
man. He knew Bivins was a
cutie and he was sucking him
in. Bivins left himself open in
the third round, and Murray
hit him. Bivins rolled with that
right-hand punch to the chin;
but the force was so terrific
that Bivins wasn't the same for
the rest of the fight.
This part still needs some cleaning up, as the background noise and whatnot on the paper registers as text when you copy off an old newspaper.
"Murray hit him so hard over
the left brow in the sixth round
that you could have stuck your
thumb in the cut; but Bivins is
not the duration heavyweight
.champ for nothing. He managed
to put-smark' Murray for the
distance; and I honestly thought
he won the fight; although it.
didn't matter to me who won—
as
I had Murray tied up on a
contract, too."
Atkins, who drew" $360,000
with his Cleveland bouts'jn'1942,
and who has provided bouts
that drexv $413,000'this year, concluded,
"I don't .know whether
little Bivins, who '.weighs' only
about •• 187 ..pounds, or Murray,
who has 200 on six. foot two.
frame, is 'the better fighter.
But Murray is the most' dangerous.
He's .the most" terrific
puncher I ever saw; he hits as
hard as. Louis. He's • still a little•
awkward —being, a converted'
Southpaw. But being a Convert-
ed Southpaw ' makes 'him': a
switch hitter, who .can, knock'
you dead with either'hand.'And
:he's only 23."
•Atkins, in New York on a business
trip, said it seemed
a dream that he — an under
study to Mike Jacobs — 'should
have the two best civilian
heavyweights in the world tied
up on contracts He hoped he
still had .a contract on Murray
.when Sergeant .Louis got out of
.the Army. .

 

Lee Q is sort of the George Godfrey of the 1940s.

Fighters and trainers who have delt with him directly are saying, "holy sh1t this guy could be as dangerous as the champion". This guy is a wrecking machine.

Yet is paper record never really confirms what is claimed of him leaving him a bit of an enigma.

 

Yes sir, I remember janitor made a post a while back how Jersey Joe Walcotts heavyweight title run 1945-1947 to status of # 1 contender was one of the best untold stories in boxing history, and used Ring Magazine numbers to show just how much he cleaned out the division in that period.

 

Lee Oma, Tommy Gomez, Elmer Ray, Joey Maxim were all top 10 too.

 

Walcott esentialy seems to have made his career by fighting the people that nobody else wanted to. He esentialy rounded all the other awkward contenders up.

Somtimes a strong contender can have a bigger impact on the division than the champion by disrupting the career paths of other top challengers. Archie Moore in the heavyweight division is another example.

 

Would you say that he rose to contention in similar fashion to say Sonny Liston? He afterall was beating the best crop of heavyweights that apparently Floyd Patterson wasn't fighting.. Perhaps the same or similar could be said of Joe Walcot.

 

Yes I think it could.

Louis was relativley inactive post war while Walcott was extremely active and fighting the most dangerous contenders back to back.

If Walcott had beaten Louis in the first fight then this would have been thrown into stark releif.

 

I think its needless for anyone of us to say that Walcott more than earned his right to fight for the title.. How good of a fighter was he on all time basis? Who knows. Everyone seems to have drastically differing opinions on the man, and frankly I don't think I've ever seen a boxers legacy value vary so much from fan to fan. Some have him in their top 12 while others label him as journeyman. I myself feel that he's probably top 20 or so..... He did earn his title shots thought. No mistake about that.

 

Good points. The thing is that some stupid posters here see some losses and say "hey he was a journeyman" without realizing that his competition level was absolutely sick, better than a recognized great like Holmes, for instance.

 

how do you guys think charles and Walcott would have done

 

Not to mention he fought top contenders in the 1930s on 24 hr notice without any training and hardly any food in his stomach in the past 48 hours, not to mention he spent a year or so fighting with Typoid Fever, a horrible disease which cost him a trip with Blackburn to train with Louis. That man, Walcott, shown the perseverence of Abe Lincoln. Truelly one of a kind. Never got a lucky break in his life, but always had the A + level talent.

 

Looking at what happened, Jimmy Braddock's record shows that he had a fight against Farr, shortly after losing to Louis. This would have been a successful title defence. From there, Braddock either retires or he fights Schmelling or Baer in a rematch. Either way, i think it is fair to assume that Baer wins the title. The most likely scenario is Schmelling defeating Braddock in the agreed fight and Baer being the first title defence (he already beat Schmelling). This is where it gets interesting. Baer would become the first ever 2 time champion and given that the Braddock loss was a real upset and underestimation on Baers part, i think he would be seen by most as the best fighter in the world at this stage. Looking at Baers opponents, it would seem that Baer would then go in his own Bum of the month tour.

In 1936, Max Baer would defend the title (by my quick count) 23 times! With an absolutely astounding amount of early round KOS!. And the person who finally stops Baer and becomes the New World Champion, is none other than Art Oliver!. A world champion in his professional debut! Certainly would raise his stock, at the very least to Leon Spinks proportions. Art has three quick successful defences, before losing to Maurice Strickland, anohter who would profit from this scenario! Maurice would have a decent run, but after 4 successful defences he would lose hotly built hitler vs usa match with Walter Neusal and, control of the world title would go the bad guys.

Until September 1938 when Neusal loses the title to Heinz Lazek, the first ever Austrian world champion. After 3 defences, including a rematch win over Walter Neusal, Heinz loses the title to Adolf Hueser from Germany (he even sounds like adolf Hitler). THis would lead to a hitler promoted All german challenge for his first ever defence against schmelling. And Schmelling would win back the title in July 1939 by 1st round ko(like Louis).

Due to the War Schmelling would not fight again until 1947. And after two defences, he would drop a decision to Walter Nussal the former champion in 1948. Walters next 5 defences would leave Walter as a repected champion but he would lose his final match to Conny Rux in 1950. By this time, i am guessing that the USA will have their own version of the title, but this is how the lineal title will look. 3 defences later and Gene Jones wins the title. Next to take the title is the German Hein ten hoff. In January 1952, Karel Sys won the title. Incidentally, when you consider that Jersey Joe Walcott had earlier beat Hein Ten Hoff on points not long ago, but still couldnt get a shot, you have to worry that this lineage is starting to suggest that Maybe Hitler would have won the war if Joe Louis Hadnt been born!

Karel Sys would lose his first match against Heinz Neuhaus, but would win the title straight back and would later defend his title 7 times, before Heinz Neuhaus would prove his superiority by winning the third fight of the Greatest trilogy ever! In November 1953, Nino Valdes scores a solid 4th round KO to become the New World champion (first ever from Cuba). Now Nino is a real chamion, after his dominant 4th round Ko of the awesome Neuhouse(the Ali of the time), he then defends, after a couple of defences, against Sys (the Frazier of the time) and the great Sys retires on his stool. He beat the Ali and Frazier of his time, something George Foreman could not do! Definite top 10 of all time!

Anyway, back to the lineal title. After 7 successful title defences, Archie Moore becomes the first US born title champion in an awfully long time on the 2nd May 1955. Archie would make just the one defence before losing his title to the unheralded Rocky Marciano after flooring him in the second, but getting a bit slack and lazy (partying attidude after winning the world title?). Rocky would never fight again, having achieved his dream and would never give the former champion a rematch.

Does life proceed as usual from here? The real life scenario had Archie Moore losing to Floyd Patterson for the vacant world title, which makes sense. But Marciano's retirment was announced on 27 April 1956. It is difficult to imagine the elimination tournament not including some germans, with their domination of the sport for so long. Nino Valdes, the former champion had lost too many fights in 1956, and coudlnt be involved.

The Great Neuhouse though is a different story. He beat Rex Layne in January 1956 and then fought Canada's James J Parker in April. Interestingly, the legendary Neuhouse had only a year or so earlier also defeated former world champion Heinz Ten Hoff and ended Heinz' career (other than the ill fated comeback that ended with a loss to Ingemar Johansson). There were no other former world champions or leading contenders (that i can see) who have a claim to the title. I think that this would have been the first round of the elimination tournament. James J Parker who had earlier lost a UD to former champ Valdes had earned his spot in the tournament with solid wins over the tough South African Johnny Arther and it would seem clear that boxing was starting to become an international sport with the German domination slipping. James Parker would win the fight, but lose in July of 1956 to Archie Moore. One would think that this would decide the lineal championship, but it is interesting to note that Archie's next match/defence was against Professor Roy Shire, who was a well known wrestler. I am not sure what this suggests about the current state of boxing, but is it possible that because Joe louis wasnt born, the rules had evolved to an extent where boxing and wrestling were closer together (like the old LPR rules days). Why else would a wrestler compete in a world boxing championship?

Anyway, whichever way you look at it, Floyd Patterson does win the world Title from Archie Moore and transmission does resume as normal. From this point, i think legacies remain largely the same, although it should be noted that Ingemar Johansen's stock would definitely raise a little bit, because his opponents that he defeated, particularly the aging but still dangerous former world champ, Heinz Ten Hoff, would all be highly ranked and recognised fighters and Ingemar would be seen as far more than a one fight wonder, which in reality he probably was.

Looking back, i dont think you could make a fighter disappear from the landscape and have any bigger effect on the boxing landscape than Joe Louis.