If Larry Holmes had come along 8 years earlier

- Hard to say, Frazier up until '71 would stand a very good chance of winning. That said his best chance of this is to KO Holmes, I can't see this happening and despite some hairy moments Holmes would emerge with a tight decision. He'd sure as hell be hurting, though.

- Holmes would lose a competitive but clear decision against pre-exile Ali, he'd have a fair shot after that at any point up until '75. Tough to call. After that he wins.

- Hard to say, their actual fight suggests stylistically that Norton at his best could well emerge the victor. If Larry stands toe-to-toe infront of Norton it'd be a tussle that he could lose, however if he boxes behind the jab and picks Norton off with crisp, quick combinations when moving in he stands a great chance.

- Foreman is capable of hurting anybody early if he catches them, and closeing the show but I just can't see Homes being one of those guys (Ali, Liston and maybe Tunney being obvious others). Foreman was always troubled by good movers and speed. If George doesn't do it before the mid-rounds it's Holmes fight to lose. I can see Larry taking a relatively comfortable UD in the end.

- That's fair enough.

 

Ps: * Last edited by Bill1234. How ironic.


LMAO: I'm being totally honest here, despite my username I try and be subjective about Larry, but now given this 'edited' senario people will no doubt accuse of this being a nuthuggers post lol. I could change it to Larry whips 'em all "no contest" and nobody would know it was me haha (only joking).

 

- Better than some could, yes. He sure as hell could take mean shots and was arguably at his most dangerous when hurt. Shavers II, Witherspoon and Snipes are testomony to that. I suppose it's a case of whether or not he's dragged into fighting Foremans fight or sticks to his own gameplan. You can't right Foreman off against most fighters really, but I think he'd be 'live' underdog here. That tag would evaporate the longer the fight lasted.

-Point taken but who said he needs to knock Foreman out, if Holmes makes it past midfight he should be well on his way to winning anyway. Holmes may not have seen as slick as Ali but he could move laterally out of range, his jab was snappier and just as fast plus he hit harder, definitely hard enough to gain Foremans respect. Look at Zaire for example Ali caught him with some great, well timed shots, he didn't just walk through 'em all. When Foreman couldn't simply overwhelm a fighter and when he needed a plan 'B' to fall back on he didn't just look quite as good, became frustrated, swung more wildly and let's admit it didn't look exactly watertight defensively (even at the best of times there were noticible deficiencies there).

 

He would never be the great champ he was. Sparring with Ali made Holmes as we know him. Otherwise, he gets beat by the Bobicks of the world in relative obscurity.

Place the '78 Holmes in 1971 and Frazier beats him in a great fight.

 

JOE FRAZIER- would give Holmes problem's given that Larry's style was similar to Ali's, but 4 key differences are that Holmes was more suseptible to the right hand as opposed to the left, which troubled Ali more. Secondly, Larry probably had slightly more power than Muhammad did. Third, Holmes had a vicious right uppercut that cought a lot fighters as they were pushing forward against him. Lastly, Ali fought Frazier when he was just a notch below his best, returning from a four year layoff, whereas if Joe fought Larry we'd presumably match them at their absolute peaks. I see Joe being an extremely tough test for Larry, but at the end of the day, Holmes wins by a close decision or a very late stoppage.

GEORGE FOREMAN- As mentioned before, Holmes had a soft spot for the right hand, and George had one of the best. Therefore, his power, punch selection, and aggresiveness during the seventies would make him a dangerous test for Holmes. The problem with George is that he struggled with world class boxers, especially ones who could take a punch and had the stamina to remain effective in the late rounds. I'm not going to claim that Holmes would stop Foreman in the same fashion as Ali, given that they fought in Africa under unusual conditions, but even if they fought at Maddison square garden, I'd pick Holmes by a late stoppage or wide decision.

MUHAMMAD ALI- I really don't see Holmes beating Ali in top form, which was likely during the late 60's. A 1971-1975 version however would have been somewhat more managable though. I'd still pick Ali to win a close, and probably controversial decision, but Larry stealing a decision by a hairline margin is not out of the question against a SEVENTIES version of Muhammad.

KEN NORTON- Here is where I have my doubts about Holmes walking away with a "W". Norton seemed to have the number of boxer's like Ali, Holmes and Young. Larry was nearing his peak, when Ken was in a decline, and Norton gave him more than a fair share of trouble. In fact, Norton likely won about 6 or 7 of those 15 rounds, and kept the rounds that he didn't win fairly close. A peak Norton would be a huge problem for any version of Holmes, and I'd have to be inclined to favor him.

RON LYLE- I don't see much of a problem here. Lyle ironically gave big punchers like Foreman and Shavers problems, but against slick boxers with great stamina, solid chins, and good ring generalship, he tended to fall short. I pick Holmes by a stoppage late.

JERRY QUARRY- Quarry is simply too small, too cut prone, and didn't fair well against your better skilled men like Ali, Ellis and a few others. In fact, Ali in his first fight in 4 years battered Quarry to a stoppage, and when Jerry was in his prime lost to another boxer in Jimmy Ellis, who was not quite in Holmes' league. Larry TKO's Quarry sometime in the mid rounds.

 

You make a very good point Magoo. All your predictions seem very reasonable and you have good arguments for making them. Still would give a prime Frazier a slight edge over Holmes, though, because the only way to beat Frazier was to either stay out of his range through quick movement or to incapacitate him with punches, and I'm not sure Holmes could manage either. But you're probably right that Holmes wasn't as vulnerable to Frazier's left hook as for example Ali was, and Frazier's right hand wasn't nearly as devastating.

 

This is true, but for the fun of fantasy matchups, lets use our imagination and create a hypothetical scenario. Let's say, Ali is in his four year exhile from the sport and needs to stay active by training and sparring. A 19 year old Amateur named Larry Holmes shows up at his gym around 1969-1970, and talks Angelo Dundee into letting him train and spar there for a few days. At some point, a sparring partner fails to show up for a session with Ali, because he either got drunk the night before, or was attending a black panthers meeting. Holmes is called in as a substitute, and to everyone's surprise, shows great effort and tenacity, though he only weighs about a 175 Lbs at this point. Ali and Dundee agree to let him substitute where he can. Holmes's confidence goes through the roof. He starts beating the hell out of every amateur that's put in front of him, and in the meantime is getting more and more sparring time with Ali, especially given that the time is nearing for Ali to come out of exhile. Ultimately, a young Holmes decides to turn pro early in 1971, rather than 73'. He wins about 9 straight fights against some household club fighters and tomato cans in his first year. In 1972, he moves up to fighting journeyman and trial hoarses, and begins 1973 with a record of about 15-0. He then starts fighting the Boone Kirkmans, Antonio Peraltas, Chuck Wepners and Luis Garcias of the world. By mid 1974, Goerge Foreman is champ, and Holmes is ranked around #4 with a fight lined up with Quarry.

How's that for some good BS?

 

As history stands Larry was the right guy @ the right time. Barely beating the worm Norton in 78', taking 13 rounds against Cooney, being bounced around the ring by Snipes, losing twice to Spinks when Larry was the same age as Ken Norton in 78'........... Had he come along earlier, he would have been a highly ranked contender, maybe beaten Ali in 77-78' for a championship

 

You just explained all of the stuff that I was too lazy to do. Great post.

 

Thanks

 

:good

 

He would have been a champion. He comparers favorably to the ATGs of the early 70's. He's a top 3 Heavyweight ATG.