if liston had beat clay.....

No. I don't agree with all the BS about Tyson being in **** shape either. Neither was in terrific shape, but that happens all the time. Actually, one could make excuses for all Ali's losses as well, cite Mailer about how Ali revelled in champagne and women before FOTC for example, but that would also be a lot of exagerration.

 

Of course it's true. But what I'm trying to get into your thick skull is that that doesn't automatically mean that the guy is there to be taken. What you're saying was of course known to everyone before that fight, but how many were saying "this is going to be a cakewalk for Clay, since Liston has only had so and so many rounds of action..."?

This has only become a big issue afterwards for guys like you, who can't stand the thought that your big, bad hero was tamed and made to look silly.

Ok. Now I'm done.

 

Liston's personal life was up and down to say the least once he got hold of the title following the Patterson fight.....to the extent where it would never let him be the fighter he was capable of being ever again.

 

In both cases it is suported by an abundance of testimony from inside and outside their camps. In Tysons case an especialy detailed case could be put together.

 

As I said, there are always going to be people willing to make excuses for their guy when he lost, especially if it was a humiliating upset. If we took all those at face value we'd have to devalue many famous wins a whole deal.

Better to look at their condition in the ring. Doing that, there are few cases where I buy that the fighter was in really poor shape. That would be Holy in the third Bowe fight. The way he gasses so early you can see that something isn't quite alright. But that's about it.

 

I can hardly see anything about either Liston or Tysons performences in the ring to suggest that they were on top form. Their general lethargy seems to be consistent with the stories coming out of their training camps.

 

Nobody had liston as a cakewalk for clay, I agree. You misunderstand me. sonny liston is not my big bad hero, I rate him about #15.

Liston was only ever a great force for one year 1960, people get caried away with that one year and over rate him. He had no exceptional wins before and the two patterson wins were psyche jobs.

Ali beat beter fighters than Liston, its just that Liston was the man to beat that year to become champ. Liston never would have beat a 1964 ali, even if he was a beter fighter in 1960 than he was in 1964.

 

You will rarely look your best when someone is poking a stiff jab in your face and giving you movements and angles. Still, Tyson looked fresher after 10 rds of punishment than Holyfield did after two rds in Bowe III. There you see the difference. Also, you can't hide the excess weight true laziness will give you that well. Tyson and, especially, Liston looked fairly trim.

Ps. No one has said either Tyson or Liston was on top form. But that's a whole lot of difference from being there for the taking for just about any decent, motivated contender.

 

Fair enough. But your agenda still have you pursuing the wrong avenues. Liston wasn't at his very, very best in '64, but he still would have been a formidable opponent for most HWs. But a young, comparatively green Clay handled him in a fantastic manner.

 

Douglas, if you examine his record was the first fighter Tyson faced since Tucker who was still beating "at the time rated" fighters. Holmes, thomas, tubbs, Bruno and spinks had not beat any rated fighters since the year tyson turned pro!

Buster always was a great fighter, he just blew hot and cold because he was not groomed like a regular prospect. Around the Tyson fight he was genuinely among the best 3 fighters in the world. we just didn’t know it or credit that buster could be at that time. he slipped under the radar.