IF LISTON HAD BEING AROUND IN THE 30 S?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

    11,240
    8,373
    Mar 19, 2012
    Sharkey was a great boxer but he was past it by '35. Liston would knock him out.
    Max Schmeling would get run over inside 5.
    Baer might not get in the ring with Liston unless Dempsey is there to chase him up the steps. Liston KO1.
    Louis/Liston?
    Louis gets off the canvas to KO Sonny in 7.
     
    mcvey and Fergy like this.
  2. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    66,932
    17,085
    Feb 15, 2006
    Risko and Stribling perhaps.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

    92,412
    19,844
    Jun 2, 2006
    Who did Stribling beat to suggest he would be competitive with Liston?
    In his 2 fights with middleweight Walker, Risko was floored in one and groggy in the other ,and stopped by Schmeling , how does he survive Liston's power?
     
    Fergy likes this.
  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    66,932
    17,085
    Feb 15, 2006
    Both of them were very durable fighters, who had bouts going into three figures, with a lot of fights against contenders, and were only stopped by Schmeling.

    It's not so much who they beat, as how many fighters struggled with them.

    This makes me think that these fights could be more interesting than you are anticipating.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    26,105
    5,699
    Dec 31, 2009
    I think there are a lot of guys that can take Sonny the distance. Guys like Tommy Farr, Arturo Godoy and Paulino Uzcudun.

    He would beat Bob Pastor but potentially he might mess Sonny about like he did Joe Louis the first time.

    Slappsy Maxy Rosenbloom can match Whitehurst and Machen.

    And that’s before we look at his chances against the actual champions.

    I mean what are we doing here? Do we pick only the best performance of Sonny and run only that one effort against these guys over and over, or do we use the best two or three versions only two or three times and imagine his career with all the different performances Liston had and play them out on as many 1930s guys?

    Because I don’t see the very best of anyone losing that many fights. And there are always enough good guys From any decade to fight with the wrong performance. For instance, the Sonny of the Harris fight against Schmeling of the Louis fight stands a better chance than Sonny who fought Gerhard Zech.

    I think we need to establish what 1930s guy fights Sonny the night he fought Foley and what guy fights Sonny the night he fought Wepner or Ali.

    There are a lot of very good fighters in the 1930s and if we save only the very best individual performances of Sonny Liston to come only against the best guys he would need precisely the same career navigation all fighters need in order to be successful. There are just as many career banana skins Liston can slip over on in the 1930s as most other decades.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

    92,412
    19,844
    Jun 2, 2006
    Much is made of the fact that Stribling was only stopped once but,apart from Schmeling ,who turned the trick ,which big punchers did he face?Another factor to keep in mind is a good many of Stribling's bouts were set ups against either his chauffeur or tough men types in hick towns.
    Stribling has a known 253 fights, 23 were against debutees.
    73 were against guys with losing records, professional losers.
    He fought the biggest collection of fall guys and stumble bums any heavyweight ever faced,more even than Carnera!

    If 165lbs Walker could do this below to Risko, Liston would flatten him.

    "Walker won "due chiefly to a furious last two rounds in which he punched Risko groggy with vicious left hooks to the head and body". (New York Times
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  7. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

    92,412
    19,844
    Jun 2, 2006
    Who has singled out Liston's best performances?
    This thread is about how Liston would do in the 1930's ,ie who would he beat? Who would beat him?
    It isn't about who might take him the distance or survive till the final bell.

    It's also a given we are talking about prime fighters unless specifically otherwise stated.
    No reasonable poster would consider the 221lbs, late 30's Liston who fought Zech to qualify for that criteria!
    No need to muddy the waters.
     
    swagdelfadeel and Fergy like this.
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    26,105
    5,699
    Dec 31, 2009
    Yeah but by the same token, Embrell Davis flattened Marty Marshal easier than Sonny could in three fights. Bert whitehurst was coming off a seventh round knockout loss to old man Archie Moore then fought Sonny Liston in his next fight and lasted the distance with him. So sometimes styles make fights.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

    92,412
    19,844
    Jun 2, 2006
    This doesn't apply because Liston was a novice against Marshall whereas Risko was a seasoned pro of100 fight when he lost to Walker ,a middleweight! Liston knocked Whitehurst clean out of the ring and the final bell saved him from a ko.
    In neither Whitehurst fight was Liston prime,you are guilty of precisely the same crime you are cautioning others about! You're the one singling out individual pre prime performances in an attempt to prove God knows what!
    Still got that larceny in your posts I see!
    Davidson stopped Marshall in8 rds and 3 rds
    In their 2nd fight uninjured Liston dropped Marshall 7 times for a 6 rd ko
    I don't want to debate the merits of Liston with you,because I don't find you objective on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    26,105
    5,699
    Dec 31, 2009
    Yeah but Sonny had 54 fights spread over 18 years. I think, today with such access to records it is more reasonable to suggest putting those fights into the 1930s and selecting 54 1930s opponents accordingly. I think he would have a very similar career.

    I think we need to establish what 1930s guy fights Sonny the night he fought Foley And Harris and what guy fights Sonny the night he fought Ali and zech.

    It’s the only way to do it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing banned Full Member

    92,412
    19,844
    Jun 2, 2006
    I'm not wasting any more of my time with you on this.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    26,105
    5,699
    Dec 31, 2009
    You don’t think there are enough similar fighters from the 1930s to replace the ones Sonny actually fought in the 50s and 60s?
     
  13. barberboy2

    barberboy2 Member Full Member

    185
    186
    Dec 22, 2017
    I don’t think there’s too many fighters other than Joe Louis who could live with Liston in the 1930s.
    With that reach, left hook, scowl and intimidating presence I think he rips through the top 10 like he did in the late 50s and early 60s.
     
    mcvey and Fergy like this.
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    26,105
    5,699
    Dec 31, 2009
    I guess if you pick the right fights for him it would be possible to orchestrate that kind of run outside of championship level. But is the mileage there to include a total domination of the champions of that 1930s period? You have to remember there are about four or 5 really worthy performances over a very short period that can be regarded all time level. If Sonny wastes those moments on the lesser guys, Does Sonny have enough great performances to go around to deal with the better guys?
     
  15. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

    13,962
    12,484
    Jan 8, 2017
    If we go by Liston maturing and being at not far off his best in the time frame, then the big names of the former champs are faded. Head to head, Liston would have to put on a bad show to lose at this point imo. Yes, maybe there's a few contenders that take Sonny the distance but not actually beating him. If Joe Louis had not existed then we'd have had a Damn good Liston fighting Carnera and Baer probably. And then maybe Braddock, I don't see Sonny somehow losing here at all.
     
    Reinhardt and mcvey like this.