If Liston Had Lived ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jun 23, 2019.



  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I don’t think it is a question of anyone being a fool. If somebody wants to rate Leon Spinks above the guys those experts put behind Liston on account of Leon’s gold medal and beating Ali after so few fights I can see an argument, and it’s up to them.

    For me, It is not a case of right and wrong. So long as somebody can put forth a good enough case to support their view I don’t have a problem. It is not like some arguments that can’t be backed up.

    The case Houdini uses is a strong one. So he’s entitled to it.
     
  2. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    Look someone insults me and tries to get smart he is geiting **** back and believe me that precious ***** is going to get his share IDGAF how you feel about it.
     
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  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not to mention Patterson X2
     
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Liston wanted no part of anyone who could fight post Ali. Period. He talked a lot about Frazier and Quarry but it was all just talk. Aileen Eaton and Bill Miller both tried to match Liston with Quarry more than once and he backed out of negotiations. He was also offered a title shot at Ellis and refused. When he beat Henry Clark who couldnt punch a lick the plan in California was for his next fight to be against Jerry Quarry. Instead he fought 20-30-2 Sonny Moore in Phoenix. They were still talking about Jerry then and after beating Moore did he fight him? Nope. He went down to Mexico and fought 4-6-1 Willis Earls. He continued his parade of no hopers while pretending to call out guys like Frazier, Quarry, and Ellis but when anyone expressed an interest he shied away. The first halfway threatening guy he fought during his comeback was Martin and Martin knocked him out cold. Thats why Liston never fought anyone with a pulse after Ali. The bloom was off the rose.
     
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  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yeah, I suspected that Sonny becoming champion was everything he hoped for and like a lot of guys there was no real passion left over to regain it. Do you think he had it in him if he had wanted it though, or do you think he shrewdly realised his limitations and was just punching the clock until retirement?
     
  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sonny Liston was stopped by Leotis Martin in December 1969. Jerry Quarry was stopped by George Chuvalo six days later.

    Quarry was way ahead of Chuvalo at the time. Liston had floored Martin and had given him a pretty bad beating before Sonny began to fade and got caught.

    The winners - Martin and Chuvalo - were penciled in to fight each other next but both were too damaged. (Martin never fought again.)

    I think Liston vs Quarry in 1970 would've been a pick'em fight.

    In 1970, Sonny cracked Chuck Wepner's cheekbone, broke his nose and Liston's jab tore Wepner's face apart so badly it required 72 stitches to close.

    And Quarry was cut to the bone by Ali in October 1970 in just three rounds.

    Sonny could've cut up and stopped Quarry. That's a very realistic scenario. Liston certainly would've been more motivated than he was for Wepner.

    Also, Quarry didn't do so hot against the name common opponents he shared with Liston. Eddie Machen beat Quarry. Floyd Patterson drew with Quarry.

    Liston's age was an issue. But that jab ... and Quarry's skin.

    Toss-up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  7. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Martin and Chuvalo were not "penciled in." Because of the odd ending of Quarry-Chuvalo the Garden wanted to them to have a rematch. Chuvalo wanted no part of it because he was well on his way to losing to Quarry when that freak stoppage occurred. Chuvalo used the win to propel himself into a fight with Foreman. Martin was never on the cards. Its all well and good to imagine what Liston MIGHT have done with a prime Quarry the problem was that Liston wanted no part of that fight. It was offered to him several times and he always shied away. In fact Chuvalo was offered once and he didnt take that one either. Like I said, Liston wasnt going after anyone threatening. Its comical today to hear people suggest Frazier avoided Liston when Liston got knocked out brutally by a guy who wasnt even the best HW in Philadelphia.
     
  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Liston was, as you say, punching the clock. Getting paydays as long as he could. He was still a dangerous guy if motivated and in shape but bowling over a bunch of human punching bags was no way to get ready to fight a real contender. Most contenders dont just fold up when a 40 year old whose weaknesses have been exposed scowls at them. That was Liston's problem with Martin. Martin was no world beater. He wasnt bad but he wasnt anything great. He was a journeyman and those guys dont tend to get flustered easily. They know their craft. So when Liston jumped out to an early lead Martin continued to his workmanlike performance, hung tough, and was able to land enough shots that he busted up Liston and had Liston looking like a confused, scared little boy before the stoppage. It was Liston who was unprepared for a real fight and it was easy schedule in the previous three and a half years that led him there. The flip side of that is that if his schedule had been tougher its possible at his advanced age that the wear and tear burns him out faster and he never makes it to 1969.
     
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  9. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Bull.

    Quarry was smaller than Liston, had lost to Machen and drew with Patterson, was white (you can count the number of 'name' white heavyweights Liston was ever offered on one hand), was highly ranked and was a bleeder.

    Liston didn't "shy away" from Quarry. That's laughable. Liston would've given his right arm to fight Quarry, because he could've beaten him with just the jab.

    Quarry wasn't exactly known for his ability to avoid jabs.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes i agree with this. There wasnt anywhere for Sonny to go, other than making winning appearances off the beaten track against lesser guys or losing to named guys as a kind of stepping stone. His investors would have pulled the plug on him because he had no currency left in the division.

    Sonny didnt have the stomach for hard competition. Certainlyby then he had no appetitefor it. Overall, he had very few competitive fights. He missed out on really testing his limits. Such a pity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I disagree with this as well. The fact that Liston knew he wasn't going to get a title shot, and seeing guys who couldn't last a few rounds with him (like Patterson, Williams, Folley) and sparring partners like Terrell get title shots and one opportunity after another later in the decade had to be incredible demoralizing.

    Yet Liston still had the drive to get in shape, get in the ring, take in an eager young Olympian in Foreman, and beat 15 guys demonstrates how well he could've done if opportunities WERE ACTUALLY AVAILABLE to him.

    None of the top guys had any intention of fighting him. They didn't want to and they didn't have to.

    Had he been offered a fight with Jerry Quarry, think he would've turned it down or not trained, or gone thru the motions and treated it as a fight with Sonny Moore?

    Please.

    Age no doubt would play a factor.

    But Sonny Liston vs Jerry Quarry in 1970 would've been FASCINATING. And anyone under the mistaken notion that Liston would've treated a Quarry fight like going to get a couple-thousand bucks fighting Wepner in Jersey City is nuts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Go get a ****ing clue. Aileen Eaton and Bill Miller both offered Liston fights with Quarry more than once and he turned them down. Thats a certifiable fact. Your dumbass racist comment about Quarry has no bearing on the fact that Sonny wasnt looking to fight anyone with a pulse.
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I certainly agree Liston vs Quarry would have been fascinating in 1970 but I don’t think it was the kind of fight Sonny was interested in anymore. Joe Bugner did a much better job on Chuck Wepner than Sonny did. He really schooled him like a hot knife through butter just months after Sonny had Laboured with him. People talk about the facial damage Chuck took as a consequence but seriously, Bugner as a kid, really handled Chuck better ...and this shows how much Sonny had sunk. Prospects were doing a number on the guys he was beating.

    I believe Sonny was a shrewd guy. He knew his limitations. Boxing was a job to him. He wasn’t looking for no beatings anymore. There is always a level an old fighter can win at and so long as people want to see it. this is exactly what Sonny was more interested in doing. The Martin fight had been an over ambitious error.

    Sonny was looking for guys that had enough of a name to keep him being noticed that he could still beat. Clark had been one. On paper Martin fit that criteria too, but Martin was too much of a step up. I think Sonny, had he continued, would have kept fighting the guys the other contenders and prospects could beat for as long as he could and hopefully supply a profit for those that owned him.

    Potentially career ending wars were if no interest to Liston by then. He had already paid his dues and been a champion. He just wanted to pay his bills. That’s what that whole Swedish tour had been about. There was no ambition by then.
     
  14. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You can disagree all you want but the facts dont lie. Aileen Eaton offered Liston a Quarry fight more than once and he turned it down. Bill Miller tried to match them two or three times and Liston turned it down. Jay Edson tried to match Liston with Quarry and Liston turned it down. Jerry Birkhimer offered Liston $50,000 to fight Quarry in Oakland and Liston turned it down. Angelo Dundee offered Liston a title shot at Jimmy Ellis when Liston was rated 4th by the WBA and Liston priced himself out of the fight. Does that sound like a guy who isnt scared of losing what little status and prestige he had? In every single one of those instances Liston chose a lesser fighter and a lesser payday as an alternative. Sorry but thems the facts. Liston had a yellow streak a mile wide at that point in his career and no amount of black pigment or racist horse**** from you will change that. You can parrot Liston's wins over fighters nearly a decade earlier but the fact remains that Liston was aging and had lost his biggest weapon, his aura of invincibility long since then. Just because you think his overrated ass was better than Quarry in 68/69 because he had darker skin doesnt mean he believed that nonsense. If he did he would have taken his shot. Instead the best he could come up with was Leotis Martin and he got knocked out brutally. Trying to compare Wepner to Quarry is laughable and insulting. The ONLY thing they had in common was their skin color which seems to be the one thing you are focused on differentiating Liston from Quarry during this period. I have zero time for racist twats like you.
     
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  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Because Joe Bugner was 20 and had everything to shoot for, and it was three months after Liston had broken Wepner's nose, cracked his cheekbone and carved Wepner's face up so bad it took 72 stitches to close.

    A stiff wind could've cut Wepner three months after Liston pealed his face off.

    This is where we disagree.

    Chuck Wepner was the kind of fight Sonny wasn't interested in anymore, not Quarry.

    Wepner was a nobody. He didn't get a rating until much later.

    Liston was still dominating people when Sonny's lack of motivation was at an all-time low. Sonny Liston wasn't interested in ANY opponent he FACED in the late 60s, because a win got him nowhere.

    I don't know why people will accept Tim Witherspoon going down in one round against Bonecrusher Smith because Tim was depressed, or he didn't like Don King, or whatever ...

    And then they look at Sonny Liston in the late 60s and assume that was Liston fighting the very best he could and anyone tougher might shorten his career.

    Think Liston wasn't depressed seeing Floyd Patterson go 12 with Quarry twice and 15 with Ellis for the title, or see Machen, Terrell and Doug Jones fight for WBA belts? Think Liston didn't crave those types of opportunities that NO ONE was giving him?

    Liston was lost. A fight with Quarry (who was highly ranked) would've been all the motivation he needed, IMO.

    Quarry wasn't exactly a dominant force from 1966 to 1969 himself. And Jerry had everything to gain.

    Liston could've beaten Quarry. Quarry ate jabs. Liston still had a great one in 1970.