If Marciano Had Faced...?

Don't see any reason to believe that Cleveland was harder to find and hit.

 

Watch Cleveland against Liston throwing his jabs and vicious punches. He was moving fairly well. Rocky plodded straight forward with zero side to side movement and he couldn't reach Sonny with a jab if you tied a broomstick to his wrist. Cleveland Williams would be the hardest puncher Marciano ever faced. Rock would have to endure bombs from a man physically outmatching him in every department.

 

You need to research Clevelands early career more closely.

 

I have. He’s beaten a lot of high quality C fighters. His one good win over Terrell was later avenged by Terrell. He had some talent and power but let’s not stretch his abilities here. Walcott and Moore prob hit equally as hard they both certainly had better KOs over there careers of high quality opposition as opposed to williams goose egg

 

Oh, in that case...Machen is very slippery, and Rocky missed enough is it was; he goes on a fruitless chase after Machen, but can't catch him long enough to put him away. Entertaining, but Machen loses a decision where Rocky accomplishes nothing. As good and powerful as Rocky was, the long assertion that he would knock out Cleve is preposterous. For crissake, Williams was almost 5 inches taller and had at least 30 pounds in weight on Marciano, and most of Marciano's peak fights were against aging guys like Walcott, Charles, and Moore. None of them very big at all, and none of them very powerful compared to Rocky, and the last two not even real heavyweights. Prime Cleve destroys Rocky in 6 or 7 after some see-sawing. A blood bath. What I said about Rocky vs. Valdes still stands. Valdes just struggled so much with the basics of boxing.

 

Al Weill was never one to take chances with his prize possession. He liked them small for Rocky, which is why he was never going to sign Nino Valdes or Bob Baker. To tell you the truth, I don't think Weill even wanted Don Cockell for Rocky. Not that he had any fear of the Britisher, but I always looked at his series with Harry (Kid) Matthews and it always looked funny how it took 3 wins before they finally signed him for Rocky. I tend to think if Matthews could have pulled one win out of his hat he would have been signed for a rematch with Rocky. Another nice small heavyweight. I'm not dissing Rocky. I think he would fight anyone put in front of him. But Weill and Cus D'Amato were cautious managers.

 

Cleveland Big Cat Williams was a very muscular heavyweight, who in his prime had hit his opponents with some pretty wicked shots, namely Sonny Liston in both fights, despite being stopped by Sonny. Williams own a 7th round knockout over Ernie Terrell in April 1962. Rocky Marciano as great as he was, would have had to endure some immense punishment as Liston had to soak up. I see Rocky beginning to find his mark by round 6, and start to land his lethal wallops to the arms and ribs of the Big Cat. By round 9, Marciano, cut and face swollen, lands his Suzi-Q to the jaw of a completely exhausted Williams, sending him down and out for the full count. Eddie Machen went 12 rounds with Sonny Liston on Sept 7 1960, losing the decision to The Big Ugly Bear. Remember Ingemar Johansson stopped Eddie in round 1, on Sept 14 1958, the question would be, does Ingo hit harder than Marciano?, That would be a good fight to see as well. Eddie does box cautiously against Rocky, but i think that the constant pressure and body blows will take away the steam from Machen. Behind on points, Rocky catches a very tired Eddie, and begins to rip home a torrent of non stop blows, Machen wilts to the canvas like a dried up flower in round 10, the fight is over as Eddie stares at the referee waving his arms. Nino Valdes would give Marciano a very good battle, but Rocky's tenacity becomes too much for Nino to handle, TKO 13.

 

I find your post very entertaining, maybe at that particular point in time, a title defense against Henry Cooper would prove to be a safe title defense.

 

I watched it quite a few times, Williams ate punch after punch and showed no defense.

Rocky was much harder to land cleanly than Williams, even excellent boxers like Walcott, Charles or Moore rarelly timed him well. Rocky wasn't defensive wizard, but he was better defensively than you give him credit for.

I don't see Rocky beating Liston either, but Cleveland did pretty badly against Sonny anyway so I don't see how it could help him here.

Yeah sure, I bet you'd take any 6'3 210 lbs fighter over Rocky. And lol at Rocky being outmatched here.

 

Very good post.

 

Nino could have had his shot had he not turned down a title eliminator w Charles and not gotten beat by Moore in a title eliminator. He used to spar with Nino and I don’t think he thought much of him. Before he retired he didn’t think much of what was left and really he was right. Nino lost to several contenders as well as Baker (both lost to Moore).

 

That's why it helped having someone like Al Weill - who was the IBC matchmaker - as a manager. Weill could just keep matching one guy with another over and over or keep putting them in what amounted to eliminators until they got a guy they wanted for Rocky.

During different points in Rocky's reign, you could throw Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Bob Baker, Nino Valdes and Hurricane Jackson into a hat, and any of them was just as qualified to fight for the title as the other.

They each had wins that qualified them for a title shot. Some got that shot after a big win and others had to keep fighting until they lost.

Bob Baker could beat Nino Valdes a couple times but he couldn't beat Moore or Hurricane Jackson. Hurricane Jackson beat Baker twice and Ezzard Charles twice but couldn't beat Valdes. Valdes could beat Charles and Jackson but not Baker and Moore. Moore lost to Charles any number of times earlier (so you don't match them in the 50s), because Moore showed he could beat Baker and Valdes but he couldn't beat Ezzard. And you want Rocky to fight Ezzard and Archie because he matches up well with them.

Once everyone loses to everyone once or twice, take your pick of who you prefer or who you think Rocky matches up well with. There is plausible deniability. They all have pros and cons.

Worked out for Rocky and the IBC.

 

My dad used to tell me that Al Weill was very beneficial for Rocky Marciano. He told me that Rocky would be bleeding badly, Weill would call the referee over when the fight looked like it was going to be stopped, Well would say one more round to the referee, and Rocky would go out, stopping his opponent in that round.

 

Al Weill took half of everything Rocky earned, even outside the ring. Which is why Rocky often asked for fees for the gigs he accepted outside of boxing in cash and then he'd hide it instead of putting it in the bank. People thought he was just cheap. But it was so he didn't have to give half to Weill. Weill was also the guy who made the fights for the International Boxing Club. So Weill had a definite conflict of interest and often pitted other heavyweights he saw as a threat in some way to Marciano (and Weill's 50 percent cut of Rocky) against each other over and over. Weill wasn't the first to exert control like that in the sport and he certainly wouldn't be the last.