If Marciano Had Fought Valdes,Baker,& Henry?

oh really to which one?

Marciano and Valdes sparred at Stillman’s, witnessed by the late great forum poster Joe Rein (aka John Garfield) who according to Joe ‘Marciano got the better of it, and Valdes walked out out of the ring completely broken”

Also, Valdes-Satterfield should show you that a 5’10 short armed power puncher can have success against Valdes. Oh, and Marciano had a granite chin unlike satterfields glass mandible.

Valdes has two things working against him. He loved to brawl (didn’t utilize his reach enough) and he gassed, recipe for disaster against the rings ultimate animal.

Bob Baker. Impressive talent, who lacked a good chin and wasn’t a heavy hitter. He wouldn’t be able to keep Marciano off him for 15. Baker had all sorts of problems with Hurricane Jackson and even Rex Layne, both guys who swarmed all over him.

Clarence Henry. At his peak, maybe the toughest out. Henry had fast hands and electric power in his left hook. However, Henry was a clear tier below great fighters like Marciano. Archie Moore exposed this. Henry could be sloppy at times and easy to hit. Could he dish it out in the trenches and hang with Marciano for 15 ? No way. He wasn’t overwhelmingly physically imposing at 185lb and wouldn’t enjoy any physical advantages over Marciano, which is a critical component to be able to beat him.

 

Marciano knocked Archie Moore down 4 times, including for a 10 count. Something Valdes could not manage to do in two fights with Moore. What does this say about Valdes’ power?

Archie Moore is the all time knockout king, who also went 22-1 with 19 knockouts against men over 200lb. To criticize Marciano’s chin for getting up at a count of 2 after receiving the all time knockout king’s best sunday punch is bizarre.

 

A lot of Dempsey fans are vocal detractors of Marciano’s title reign, usually hammering the title defense against Don Cockell, and ignoring the massive win over # 1 ranked Moore, while turning a blind eye to Jack’s own title reign in which he egregiously avoided his number 1 contender for years.

 

I think the 49-0 still stands, but many people today would be complaining that Rocky did not fight Lastarza, Cockell, and Mathews.

 

@mcvey The answer is yes, Marciano’s legacy does improve if he beats Henry Valdes and Baker given the youth, size, length, and punching ability of these men, which were lacking in the younger contenders on Marciano’s resume. Cockell never should have been a title defense over Valdes.

However, Marciano firmly cemented his legacy with a knockout win over the best heavyweight contender of his era, Archie Moore, who went 4-0 against Valdes, Henry, Baker.

While he lacked a win over a young contender with length and size, he did knockout a 6’2 214lb Joe Louis, who was nearly the same size as Baker and Valdes. Was a 37 year old Louis as good as baker and Valdes? To be honest, possibly. Louis knocked out Valdes in 1 round in a live exhibition in 1950. If Valdes at his peak fights that same version of Louis, how much better does he do? Maybe the fight goes the distance, can he outpoint Louis? Would be close

Louis seemed to beat up agramonte, bivins, brion just as badly as baker and Henry did. Do they beat Louis in 51? I’d say it’s a toss up, Louis could pile up points on the scorecard with that jab and his skills.

Layne is an underrated win for Marciano, given Layne beat younger versions of Charles and Walcott and knocked out Satterfield (who beat baker and valdes). Layne was also 34-1. Marciano knocked him out cold. Layne gave baker quite a bit of trouble in 3 fights going the distance each time.

There are levels to this game, and Marciano was levels above baker Valdes Henry. Despite the significant reach and height advantages for baker and Valdes, they never used them properly, while Marciano became a master at utilizing his deficiencies to become a smaller target and gaining leverage inside. Marciano was also a 1%er in strength, I highly doubt a Baker or Valdes could bully Marciano around the ring.

 

The lastarza rematch was necessary. The first fight was close and the accusations of marciano ducking him would've held some merit if that were the case. Though the 3 scalps provided would undoubtedly improve marciano's resume.

 

I think replacing any of them w Don slightly improves his legacy. Maybe having Valdez or Baker in there would have shut up some of the size queens…but I doubt it. The real gems on Marciano’s list were Archie (who beat all those men), Walcott, Charles, Louis and Layne. All of which were better than all the listed fighters. A way past it Layne took a prime Baker life and death beat a prime Satterfield who beat Baker and Nino.

 

Well, I guess being that Nino lost to Archie Moore 2X that Archie was the more deserving fighter. Valdes also lost to 5"10 180 lb. Harold Johnson and took a bad beating vs 5"10 183lb Bob Satterfield (getting dropped in the last round for a 9 count) so If Nino was deserving, I think Marciano would have ground Nino down and stopped Nino.

Bob Baker was Ko'd in 1 rd. by Bob Satterfield in 1953 and Archie Moore Ko'd Baker in 1954, Archie also beat Harold Johnson by TKO 14 and beat Joey Maxim and stopped Bert Whitehurst right after stopping Baker. So, I think the question should be if Marciano fought anyone except Archie Moore, what would people be saying- "Rocky ducked Archie"

Clerance Henry was a good fighter but lost to Harold Johnson, Archie Moore Jimmy Slade and Tommy Jackson from 1952-1954 so that would be more props for fighting Archie.

Also, Roland Lastarza was 53-3 going into the Marciano fight, losing only to Marciano, Dan Bucceroni and Rocky Jones and beat them both in rematches so at the time of the rematch Lastarza had beaten everyone he fought except Marciano and even though he was dropped by Marciano it was a close fight. Lastarza was a fight Rocky had to fight.

Cockell may have been Marciano's weakest challenge, and he was #2 contender, but Cockell was on a roll beating Tommy Farr, Johnny Arthur, Harry Matthews 2X and Roland Lastarza.

Marciano fought the more deserving fighters, never drew the color line and 34-1 Rex Layne was a tough crossroads match who beat the only man to beat him Dave Whitlock KO 4 and also beat Turkey Thompson, Joe Walcott, Cesar Brion, Bob Satterfield tko 8 - We know Rex was never the same after the one punch Marciano ko
Marciano would have stopped Baker and Nino IMO, probably in a more dramatic way like he did Rex Layne, Carmine Vingo and other big guys but we would all be talking about how Rocky ducked Lastarza and Archie Moore right now.

 

Over 60 fights were against HWs..,I believe you know this. That’s more fights than most pros finish with. An excellent HW record

actually his only losses at HW came after the age of 38 against Marciano, Patterson then Ali.

 

Moore's record in bouts contested above 180lbs was 60something-4-3. The other loss being to Giulio Rinaldi, which came between his defeats to Patterson and Ali.

 

I believe rinaldi fights were LHW. He only had three losses at HW. Ali, Patterson and Marciano.

 

Just on LaStarza's qualifications, here are the NBA quarterly ratings for 1953:

January 5, 1953 (before Layne-LaStarza match)

Champion--Rocky Marciano
1--Jersey Joe Walcott
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Rex Layne
4--Roland LaStarza
5--Clarence Henry

April 21, 1953 (After LaStarza outpoints Layne)

Champion--Rocky Marciano
1--Jersey Joe Walcott
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Roland LaStarza
4--Dan Bucceroni
5--Harry Matthews
6--Rex Layne

July 7, 1953 (After Marciano KO's Walcott. Last NBA ratings prior to LaStarza challenging Marciano)

Champion--Rocky Marciano
1--Ezzard Charles
2--Roland LaStarza
3--Dan Bucceroni
4--Bob Satterfield
5--Tommy Harrison
6--Coley Wallace
7--Harry Matthews

October 13, 1953 (first ratings after Marciano ko's LaStarza and Charles is upset by Valdes)

Champion--Rocky Marciano
1--Dan Bucceroni
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Roland LaStarza
4--Nino Valdes

My comment--LaStarza was 53-3. He had reversed his defeats to Bucceroni and Jones. His only unavenged loss was a split decision to Marciano. He had wins over top five contenders Layne and Bucceroni. He also had beaten two other rated fighters, Jones and Cesar Brion. So LaStarza came into the Marciano challenge having beaten four men rated when he fought them. I think that is probably an above average total if we study all contenders over the years. My take is LaStarza was an extremely qualified contender. He was carefully managed, but that has never been unusual.