If Marciano Had Fought Valdes,Baker,& Henry?

nice to hear from you Mcvey!

For the record,

I pick Baker, Henry, and Valdes to run the table vs Cockell, Lastarza, and Matthews.

Interesting..Matthews seemed to handle Rex Layne a helluva a lot easier than Baker did.

 

Yes indeed

one thing he missed. Valdes poor performance vs journeyman Archie McBride in 54.

Ezzard Charles Top Heavyweight On Challenger List

Nino Valdes Drops To Third After Poor Showing

Associated Press, March 3, 1954

Valdes gained the #1 position for a period of about 3-4 months at the end of 1953 after beating Charles and then stringing together several more solid wins, but dropped down to #3 in early 1954 after a disputed split decision against the unheralded journeyman Archie McBride, while Charles regained his perch at the head of the contender list with his back-to-back knockouts of Wallace and Satterfield.




Here is take from my late friend who knew Valdes

“I trained at Stillman's gym with him. Though I don't speak Spanish, after a time, we hit it off, between gestures and pointing. Always greeted me warmly.

He was a proud guy, took macho seriously -- did everything but pound his chest. If challenged sparring, he took it personally and went to war, though he had the tools to box behind a good shotgun jab, but it ran counter to his nature, which I think was his undoing as a fighter. When he traded, he squared up, and paid for it with too many fighters. So it was more temperment than talent that hurt him.

Had he fought Marciano, I can't imagine him having the discipline to stick with his advantages. The first time he'd get stung, he'd want a pound of flesh -- bad idea!

Years later, I used to see him nights when I passed the Metropole Bar & Grill on Broadway in New York. He was the bouncer, prowling the entrance, making an intimidating figure. He filled out his naturally wide frame with perhaps an additional 100 pounds. His jackets were bursting at the seams. He looked like The Hulk.

I could always count on a bear hug that near broke my ribs.

When people were getting unruly, he just looked in their direction. They cooled it instantly.”

 

Valdes would have been an interesting fight for Patterson. D’Amato wanted no part of those big punchers who held considerable height and weight advantages over Patterson.

 

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Valdes was a very inconsistent fighter, and blew hot and cold. Combine that with the fact that Marciano fought his number one contender on every other occasion makes it hard for me to fault him to much.

Valdes was probably not good enough to beat Marciano, but he at least deserved the chance to try.

Also, you might know this but do you know how Valdes died? The mystery surrounding his real name has made it difficult to procure a death certificate.

I once heard he was dying of cancer and when asked how bad it hurt, his response was "Not as bad as getting hit by Liston". Funny as it is, I'm not sure how true it is.

 

The winner of Charles-Satterfield was already all-but-guaranteed a shot at Marciano's title even before the Valdes-McBride fight occurred, while Valdes was still rated #1 by The Ring. Charles' & Marciano's teams were already in talks that would ultimately finalize the deal when the McBride fight occurred.

As I said, I don't blame Rocky himself for fighting Charles instead of Valdes - the public was clamoring for a Charles fight, & a lot of behind-the-scenes maneuvering went on to steer him toward that fight. Rather, I think Valdes was a victim of typical boxing politics.

Valdes had no real defense & relied on his sheer size & bulk to withstand punches from the (typically much smaller) HWs of his era. That was exposed in his loss to Satterfield, which pretty much lays the fundamental blueprint for how Rocky likely would've/should've beat him as well.

Exactly my take.

 

Instead of being a crybaby, how about telling the truth about what really happened? You have yet to do so. All the times you claimed Valdes was #1 multiple times for an extensive period of time, you were talking about completely unofficial Ring magazine ratings, instead of the ratings of the organization which sanctioned the fights, and to which Marciano was ultimately responsible to. This is the truth, it isn't going to change, you have yet to acknowledge it, and when confronted by it, you have sold the outright ridiculous lie that NBA ratings were no more important than Ring ratings.

I have said this to you multiple times, and have no problem doing so. So why the crying? here I am.

It is a bit sad, because you are an extremely knowledgable and often likable guy, but you sometimes outright lie to support bad positions.

For you and anyone else who wants to take it on, VALDES HAD NO RIGHT TO FIGHT MARCIANO. He was never #1 long enough. Period. It is a re-write of history.

 

Marciano’s style occasionally let him off balance. Butttt u can’t be a complete off balance oaf and get knocked down so infrequently nor have that many KOs. That narrative just doesn’t hold water. He also closed off the ring and the gap extremely well. Like top tier. You don’t do that with terrible footwork. He did put himself off balance walking in at times and with his gazelle punch which early on he was sloppy with. By the time he fought Harry Matthews he was a much more balanced polished fighter…he never stopped developing up till his last fight against Moore where he looked his smoothest

 

I could be wrong.

But I dont see any of those guys beating Marciano.

 

This bro, as a Marciano fan you get tired of trying to convince other fans what the historians who write the books they adore already know and put out.

I just can't be fully motivated to talk about him with folks who would degrade his accomplishments with some real stupid ideas that don't say much to me outside of "I do not understand basic physics" when on the other end of thing Rocky is a consistent top 5.

In more real terms, I respect the academic input more than the fan input and so have a hard time getting motivated to tell fans why I like Rock.


If the 925ft-lbs can be answered for you by saying but X is 265lbs doe. You're an idiot not worth my time. Maybe not as a whole but on this subject you are not worth my time. You being rhetorical here, I don't mean a specific poster.


There are plenty of issues, Charles being like a year apart in age and full career ahead being presented like a deficit to Charles is another. You tell me that and I'm likely to just call you silly in some stupid way and move on. Name for me one other match up in the history of the sport where age wise they were peers but experience wise one had a whole career's over the other is presented like the experienced man might have a problem here.

Do you jabronis not tell me stuff like but Loma had so much ams experience. ams experience so important. X gonna be a good pro because all that experience doe. Then you get to Rocky and tell me one of the dumbest ideas in the sport like as if the entire rest of the sport doesn't exist.


In one thread tell me Rocky had this huge benefit because Ezzard's so experienced. In another tell me you reckon Usyk's so good because of his ams pedigree and never once notice your flatline brained irony? Bro, waste of my time.

Edit- I didn't say but meant to, waste of my time given the dudes who write the books don't do that. They do not present an idea that is well established in boxing then reverse it to degrade an accomplishment for any fighters.

 

Mcvey has a point. Valdes unquestionably deserved a title shot over Cockell. Valdes doesn’t beat Marciano, but that doesn’t change the opinion that he deserved a shot.

having to go through Archie Moore for a title eliminator seemed like an extra road block unnecessarily placed in Valdes path… when Cockell got a title shot without having to fight Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore

 

Archie undoubtedly deserved a shot over Valdez even before the title eliminator. He had already beaten the man and everyone else Valdez lost to.

 

Marciano was ONLY responsible to the organization sanctioning the fights, period. There is no opinion in this. Valdes had not cards to call, and that is it.

 

Fighting and beating Nino Valdez when he was briefly #1 might have validated some things. Not sure about the other ones.

 

I’ve noticed I think you make the most Marciano threads here. Yet you positively do not seem like a fan LOL.