If Marciano Had Fought Valdes,Baker,& Henry?

Do you think that Nino Valdez was a big 6'3", 200+ pound heavyweight of comparable ability to later 6'3", 200+ pound contenders like Witherspoon?

 

It answers my question. We'll just have to disagree, then. I don't see much special about Valdez to rate him alongside heavyweight Michael Spinks or Tim Witherspoon in terms of actual ability as a heavyweight. All of your criticism of the quality of Marciano era contenders supports this, frankly. Compared to, say, Spinks's accomplishment of beating an older Larry Holmes, it doesn't say much for Valdez that he maxed out at almost getting a shot at the king of a bad era.

 

Whether Marciano ducked him or not is irrelevant. I'm talking what he actually accomplished in the fights he had. He never beat the king of an era you rightly criticize as weak, with a division filled by lightheavyweights. Michael Spinks, to take one of the examples above, did beat an old Larry Holmes. That alone is enough to put Spinks out of Valdez's orbit.

Valdez can defeat as many ranked guys from a weak era of lightheavyweights as he pleases (and lose to others), but I don't think that makes him comparable to the likes of Spinks or Witherspoon.

 

Yes, three men whose frames are bast suited for LHW or smaller. However you want to say it.

You have all the facts but can't put them together. Valdes lost to smaller men, so beating him would have proven nothing. Nor did Marciano have anything to prove. He beat the best in front of him. That is how one becomes great.

 

Yes, I did. You just don't understand.

 

And I disagree that Valdez would hold his own with the good 80s guys his own size. They didn't lose to tiny heavies/lightheavyweights like Moore and Satterfield, in weak divisions like the one you characterize Marciano as ruling.

Cockell, as has been frequently pointed out, was a fat LHW who lost to a middleweight. Lots of the other guys you mentioned fought in a division where top guys included an ancient Joe Louis, LaStarza, a very small Ezzard Charles, etc.

In other words, just like Vandez, mentioning their sizes alone -- or even their contender status -- doesn't tell the story.

You need to look at the environment they came from. And that's an environment where men their size just weren't that good. An environment where the #1 guy was Rocky Marciano, whom you have characterized elsewhere as being small, not really a strikingly powerful puncher, crude, and easy to hit. Rocky's best opponents were old and/or small...and highly rated. So Nino ought not impress us very much as a heavyweight contender. It didn't take much to be one, by later standards. And the opponents who were Nino's own size whom he fought didn't even achieve what Nino managed. They needn't impress us much, either.

 

That's fine. I'm not being hostile. I just disagree with you about how good Valdez was. Anyway, take care.

 

Matthews has a career upside that is generally ignored. One can knock his best wins, but he lost only to five men, one an experienced winning fighter when Harry was 17, one an undefeated heavyweight champion, two top five black murderers' row contenders, and a man who was a European and British Empire champion and a top five contender.

Baker, Valdes, and Henry all lost to much lesser fighters than any Matthews lost to--think Buford, Zuany, Gilliam--and Matthews had a much longer career and more fights, and was rated over a longer period, from 1942 to 1954, and fought both younger and older or to about the same age.

Not many can say they lost to only five men over a 19 year career in which they were rated in three different divisions.

Matthews was a respected fighter in the early 1950's. The Ring Mazazine picked him over Robinson as the best p4p fighter of 1951.

 

"If Cockell and LaStarza were ranked near the top that would indicate the lack of talent"

Unlike Manuel Ramos in 1968? Or Ford Smith in 1935? Or Tom Heeney in 1928? All top five contenders. Ramos and Heeney got title shots also. I think Cockell has a good chance of running the table if matched with this trio.